The Moment Il Lombardia Was Won

102 thoughts on “The Moment Il Lombardia Was Won”

1. The Moment Paris-Tours Was Lost.
   Now I’d read that! 😲

   • Almost as simple as the one above with Gruel and Lapeira stopping their work together. They were at least guaranteed to finish second but sometimes losing to a rival is worse. A fun finish as they often had 10-15 seconds for the final 30km (the TV captions were often too generous) so suspense to the end. Nice to see Trentin get a win too, he’s still going strong on the bike and cheerful off it seemingly all the time too.

     • Their post-race comments will have been interesting to say the least. The decision to use Bissegger, a rider who knows how to ride prologues and was a world champion pursuiter as a junior, as a leadout rather than attack immediately the catch was made was also strange. And yes, I won’t be the only person to miss Trentin’s chirpy interviews when he’s gone.

   • That was a ridiculous way to end a race. But not as stupid as the Women’s Gravel WC.

2. For the TV viewer, the afternoon of Paris – Tours with Jalabert and Voeckler had far more suspense, better images, and dramatic tactical errors where the two breakaway riders finessed the final km allowing the chasers back in and finished empty handed. Great racing, albeit second division.

   Lombardy was as predictable as we feared.

3. Estimated efforts of Ganda:

   Pogacar 477w – 7,22 w/kg
   Evenepoel 430w – 6,82 w/kg

   Coincidentally this effort is around 20min. So if we do the old FTP test, this brings Pogi to a 453w FTP, or 6,86 w/kg.

   In other words, when Evenepoel is going all out for 20min, this is just riding at threshold for Pogi. He could do it for an hour or beyond.

   There is an abyss between these riders’ levels. And that is why it is not even worth watching these races anymore. I don’t even care to bring up the pasts of his team manager and other staff anymore, I just don’t watch it.

   But I’ll read your blog and wait. This phase in cycling will hopefully pass.

   • Very much my opinion. And what bothers me most: Nobody even dares to ask any questions, they celebrate him and let Tadej do Tadej things — to use Lance Pharmstrong’s whise words.

     I’m afraid this phase won’t simply pass … I will end in a big bang.

     • This will only happen if a disgruntled insider like Landis speaks out. Pogacar is the poster boy of cycling. Nobody has any interest of bringing him down. I am done with the sport. I cannot believe people are still watching this sh*t show. He just smashed his previous PB on Ganda by 2 minutes. This is a level of ridiculousness never seen before in cycling.

       • This is the reason why it will end in a big bang. Because there will be a disgruntled insider some time. There always was.
         Or: Reputable money will run out. Just look at the team sponsors … Even a team like Visma recently had problems to find a sponsor. Obviously we are not the only ones who have doubts.
         So soon we will have Team Trump compeating Team Torturer.

   • Sadly the thought that something is rotten in the state of Slovenia is one that is beginning to feel more likely to be true..

   • I do not know whether Pogacar or anyone else in the peloton is clean. Personally I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt unless there is evidence otherwise, such as was the case for Armstrong. Certainly there is a major difference between the training and support at a big team compared to a smaller one (eg, Jorgensen’s comments on moving from Movistar to Visma, or Rohan Dennis coming from not exactly small Ineos).

     But I do have a problem with those numbers. They assume a fixed position, static air, and AFAICT drag numbers from about 3-4 years ago. They imply an accuracy of ~1 part in 700, which is surely spurious precision.

     The biggest change I’ve seen with Pog’s climbing from ’23 to ’24 is aero discipline — he stays much more compact and seated. Many attacks are seated, and those that aren’t are only briefly out of the saddle. What’s surprising to me is that Remco isn’t, since the guy is an absolute bullet on a TT bike (OTOH Pog’s position can get sloppy on a TT bike, so there’s that). His position is much more open, frequently the zipper is down or the sunglasses in the helmet. Unless you’re actually measuring CdA as a function of time there is no way you’re getting a precision of even 1 part in 70 (1 part in 7 maybe).

     Again, this is not to say that Pogacar (or Evenepoel, or Simmons with that huge solo, or anyone else) is clean. But if you’re going to use numbers, make them good numbers.

     • TDK, I agree that the numbers do not account for a lot of things. But I think we have to agree that my statement about an Abyss of difference between the level of Pogacar and everyone else right now is valid however you look at this race.
       For me it’s not about whether or not he is clean anymore. We know the morals and pasts of his team manager and trainers, so the question mark is hard to avoid. And it doesn’t really matter.
       What matters is that one rider is so clearly physically a whole level above the rest. The sporting aspect is reduced to whether one rider is at the start or not, and if he has motivation to win.

       For the first time in history a rider has podiumed all monuments. And in the process topped his astonishing PCS points count once again – so he was still growing as a rider this year.
       2019-2020 he was upcoming. 2021-2023 he was at the level his talent took him to. 2024-2025 he has pushed himself more and got more out of his talent.
       The question for the future is, can he get even more out of that talent, and reduce the competition even further.

       We can hope we’ve seen the best of Pogi for the sake of competition, but really he can afford to go back to his 2021-2023 level and still be the absolute best, no contest.

       The only competition we have left is between him and Van der Poel. And I see that balance tipping to Pogacar soon, as Van der Poel is 31 next season.

       • Very much so. I suppose the question is one of motivation when he gets to the point of ‘no more worlds left to conquer’. Is more of the same of interest, probably not. MSR, Roubaix, Vuelta are still to do. Maybe 6 TdFs. That is all. All the rest is just collecting numbers and that probably is probably a second tier motivation.

       • Up until pretty recently it was very rare for any sort of contender to even attempt all the monuments. It was a big deal that Gilbert had podiumed them all over the course of a near 20 year career, never mind 6 months. I remember at one stage fairly recently, probably around 2017, that Van Avarmaet had the best cumulative record of an active rider in monuments because he was the only bloke to have finished both Roubaix and Lombardy.
         I never considered that anyone would set new records in cycling, I assumed that everything Merckx had done was off in the stratosphere and nobody would get near it. I pretty much presumed nobody would get near even De Vlaeminck’s record in the monuments, but Pogacar is only one behind him now and you’d imagine clear of him come the end of April. That he is setting new records that even Merckx hadn’t attained is mind boggling really. Merckx’s 7 wins in Milan-Sanremo used to look ludicrous but there is a decent chance Pogacar will win 7 Lombardy’s off the bat, without ever having even been reduced to coming second.

         • Merckx had 279 wins and Pogacar currently sits on 108 … it seems unlikely that Pogacar will catch him.

         • For sheer quantity no. But for consistent dominance of major races he might.

         • Merckx had 525 wins. If you got the number 279 from PCS you should know that PCS misses a ton of smaller races (and some larger races) from the past and is only accurate for very recent years. Of course, Merckx races a lot of very small races which enabled him to get to 525 wins.

       • “Van der Poel is 31 next season”

         Now there’s a phrase to make me feel old.

         • Pogacar finishes his season with an astonishing 4921 PCS points. What is, on the surface, even more astonishing is that Merckx scored well over 5000 PCS points five times and in 1972 scored 6275. The difference is that Pogacar only raced 8635km giving 0,57 points/km whereas Merckx needed 14385km in 1972 giving (only!) 0,44 points/km. Add to Eddy’s road miles several six day races with Sercu. It seems likely that if Merckx had targeted a limited number of key races rather than racing almost everything he could have matched Pogacar’s points/km, but that’s pure speculation.

         • Looking a PCS is misleading in two ways. First, it misses lots of races from earlier years. Second, the status of races changes over time: there are races which were important in the Merckx era which have lost importance (such as Paris-Tours or Scheldeprijs); and races which are now important which were minor races in Merckx’ prime (such as Tour of the Basque Country).

         • John is right to point out the evolving status of races and also the limitations of the PCS database. Despite that my point on Pogacar’s remarkable strike rate over major races in 2025 remains valid while not diminishing the astonishing performances of Merckx over almost a decade.

           Another example of very high points over a season is Kelly who beat Pogacar’s 2025 total in 1985 (and 1984) though he needed to race 18601kms to do so!

         • Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Despite the limitations of the PCS data, it nevertheless shows there have been some astonishing seasons by riders, including the two by Kelly you mention.

       • ” But I think we have to agree that my statement about an Abyss of difference between the level of Pogacar and everyone else right now is valid however you look at this race.”

         Yes we definitely agree on that. I had wondered … there are >500 riders in the WT, with a handful outside (Pidcock, Ala, Storer, De Lie, Hirschi, etc) Over the last 50 years, have there been 5000? 10K? Would it be that strange if one of them was 3-4 standard deviations beyond the mean (3-sigma would be 3 in 1000, for a standard distribution, but this distribution might have thinner than normal tails. Or not.)? Would it be stranger if there weren’t any?

         But we seem to live in an age of GOATs. Still around is Leo Messi. I don’t follow baseball, but even I know that pitchers can’t hit and hitters can’t pitch, yet this Shohei Ohtani guy can not only do both but is top percentile in both. Magnus Carlsen (OK chess is a game, not a sport, but still requires training and dedication) is so much better than anyone else he gets bored and trolls people before crushing them. Early days yet, but in basketball Victor Wembyanama will probably end up in a class of one. Don’t know what’s up with that.

     • There are a number of Slovenians and at least 1 Slovenian medical-tech company linked to / congruent to doping affairs, and Operation Aderlass particularly. E.g., Milan Erzen, David Rozman, “Maestro Baltazar”, and Medico Tehna.

       The Slovenian ADO is generally viewed as very weak / toothless.

       • Pogacar will be mostly tested by the French anti-doping authorities as he lives in Monaco. All the riders will also be regularly tested in the country in which they do training camps or race.

         • I’d love to see stats on that.

           A number of years ago there were reports that there were near 0 OOC of altitude camps in Tenerife, because there were no certified/registered testers on the Island and it was too expensive for the Spanish NADO to send testers out there regularly. Whether other NADOs would send testers, just for the subset of athletes they have authority over… I don’t know.

           I’d love to see stats on OOC coverage.

         • Did a whole bunch of comments get pruned?

         • Sorry… looking at wrong story. 😉 Delete this and my previous.

4. Nice to Simmons race a strong race. I’d imagine his value and interest by other teams has gone up. As you IR point out he has had some difficulty last year.
   After being in the break for all that time he still did not let Del Toro pass him to line.

   • I really admired the way he raced. And certainly he got something to show for it, albeit not quite a podium.

     Pogi is a supreme talent and can’t be matched at the moment. But across any course there other ways to race and things to race for and I thought this was an excellent example of a rider dropping the orthodoxies and just going for it.

5. Your report was much more interesting than the race.

6. Simmon’s mattress – brilliant!

7. Cycling started out as a sport for newspapers (much as cricket was suited to radio broadcasts) and the TV appeal is largely dependent on the scenery. I am not sure that it can be re-imagined as pure visual excitement.

   • Yeah, we all watch, love and adore Paris-Roubaix for the scenery.

     • But we do, don’t we? In cycling the scenery is the course, or pitch, it’s the field of play. I can be as impressed and amazed by muddy fens and fields as I am by winding mountain passes, knowing our heroes have to negotiate them.

       Cycling is (nearly) always a visual spectacle of some sort. But like cricket (a game played for hundreds of years before radio) the sporting element is often best left to happen over the time and space it needs. Expecting, or forcing, them to do or be otherwise can end up with unfortunate contrivances.

       • At the risk of splitting linguistic hairs, while also agreeing with the general thrust of your post, I don’t think the scenery of a race – even in its diluted form as merely a setting – is synonymous with its parcours.

         Sure, they can overlap and link with each other and together with weather, fans, riders, road surface etc. [plus, in the case of the Tour of Poland, huge numbers of uniquely strange advertising balloons!] go to make up a race’s feel, its ambience, its visual spectacle and excitement

       • +1

8. 94 wins and still going strong. If Armstrong or Froome had attacked repeatedly from 35, 50, 75, heck even 100km out the cycling media would be screaming but now it’s, “he’s the GOAT!” Big buck’s entry into pro-cycling has come with some very rose tinted glasses.

   • With Armstrong, there evidence was there if you looked for it – post-dated TUE, working with Ferrari, dumping of medical waste in road side bins, intimidation of witnesses. What evidence has anyone presented to support allegations aimed at Pogacar? The best people can come up with is Gianetti’s past history.

     We don’t know if he’s doping or not for definite, but there is no evidence in the public domain to support accusations against him. This may change, of course, but I get the impression that those who had their fingers burned by Armstrong suspect everyone of doping because they were duped in the past.

     • If “working with Ferrari” is evidence – Then what is working with Iñigo San-Millán and Gianetti? Do you remember Saunier Duval, Riccardo Riccó etc.? There are some from that time who were convicted, and others were not. It doesn’t mean one was better than the other. Ullrich was abolished from the Fuentes affair – Valverde was welcomed back. What’s the difference?

       Remember that the UCI and Hein Verbruggen were essentially bought off by Armstrong. We didn’t have that information till 10 years after.

       Now, we have so much more money in the sport, and particularly the UAE have bottomless pockets.

       And if Pogacar is ever caught, the whole sport will be seen as a lie – and the downfall could be even bigger than it was in the Festina and Fuentes affairs. UCI knows this.

       So where does that leave us? For me, it leaves some doubt.

       The fact that Gianetti’s wikipedia page is altered so his doping history disappears a few times a year, from his own IP address is kind of amusing 🙂

       • I’ll close the comments if this goes any further into a trial via blog comments. It’s not to stifle debate, it’s more the lack of debate as it’s the same arguments on both sides and it just uses up bandwidth.

         • I think the article we need to see is not about Pog or any race but about the UCI and the integrity of the sport. What evidence is there that the sport is cleaner or safer than in the past?
           Compare the level of passport issues in athletics and cycling over last 3years (and testing independence in each)
           Review bio passport court cases with UCI
           Look at the history of cycling for +25years and how any ‘scandal’ has been exposed by police/courts/hackers (fancy bears) not the governing body
           Get the feeling that cycling is now like soccer, more optics than impact

         • You are right. But: To mee, this is an expression of frustration. I didn’t see any cycling coverage this year which adressed these issues. Your race reports are neutral. Ok. But on TV: I only saw fanboys. Celebrations of every broken record. “Wahnsinn”, as Bernie Eisel puts it.
           On the internet: Nothing else. Just take al look at Laterne Rouge.
           Or did I miss something? Yes, I’ve seen Hajo Seppelt feature on TV.

     • Historically, most successful cyclists, are subject to suspicion & veiled innuendo, at some point. Whether those ‘facts’ are manipulated simply to arouse curiosity, doubt, and discredit, the results, riders, remains to be seen. Journalists, sports writers, had all done it in the past, sometimes to generate interest. Nowadays, experts online, have the time and online platforms, to cause havoc, with reputations & little recourse, to be held accountable, if facts fail to match the truth.
       Until factual proof, if any exists, emerges, then as boring as it has become, we can either keep watching, or keep moaning.
       It’s a fine line !

9. I spent a grand total of 4 minutes fast-forwarding through the entirety of Lombardia. Why would anyone bother watching yet another inevitable procession?

   • Did the same with the final 50km of the World Championships – that was over at 100km, the moment Pog attacked with his UAE team mates helping him, rather than riding against him by sitting on his wheel.
     Evenepoel’s absurd, sulky bike change, needlessly waiting for his car rather than waiting until he got to the pits so that he could blame that – and then being towed back by cars so that he could get back to the group in front – made this even more of a farce.

   • @J Evan

     I regret watching the last two hours of Lombardia, despite knowing better. I completely agree with you—it was a total waste of time.

   • The old DVD test, as in whether you’d buy the DVD to watch the highlights and even a DVD player so you could watch it. Certainly not for Lombardia although the course looked nice on the day.

     I was going to write a paragraph about not having to look at the ankle rotation of contenders on the penultimate climb and trying to spot other tells for fatigue, nor even to take notes for the post-race blog post but instead just had it and the Tour de Vendée on in the background, it was nice to watch the scenery in the autumnal sunshine but didn’t require attention. Radio coverage would have worked possibly even better than TV.

     • The pleasant weather is in itself an annoyance to me, as nice as the scenery undoubtedly is! Lombardia is on an almost Roubaix-esque style run of dry and pleasant weather. Cold, wet weather would add a variable at a time when any kind of variable is very badly needed!

10. I am happy to park my cynicism for a while and enjoy the era. What else can we do, as armchair enthusiasts?

    As some others have commented above, I never thought I’d see a rider break records, and boundaries, like this. So I’ll enjoy it for what it is – a champion at his peak, excelling across all terrain – and reconsider if needed.

    For me this sets the scene for next year nicely and I hope Pog goes all in again for MSR and Roubaix, but maybe skipping the Ardennes so people get a chance to moan about Remco winning by minutes instead… Would make a refreshing change.

    • He could skip the Ardennes but there’s not much going on at that time of year, they’re easy wins to fly in and out for. One question for next year is whether he’s obliged to ride the UAE Tour for his sponsors and to win it as this means an early start to his season. Belgian paper HLN is even saying Roubaix might wait as he could do the Giro.

      He’s also got a busier winter coming up as his profile is higher. He ought to be on cereal boxes, doing Gillette adverts etc and it seems part of the off-season will involve him being more present in the media and corporate work.

      • With all due respect, how prominent is his profile, really? No offense to anyone (and no, I won’t speculate about the reason behind his impressive watts), but outside the relatively small cycling community, how many people would actually recognize him?
        I saw someone mention the drastically declining Tour viewership, and it feels like the cycling audience here in Germany is losing interest overall. There might be other reasons beyond just Pog, but still…

        He might sell in Slovenia and on some cycling websites, but corporate work overall? I doubt it.

        • He has a low profile today. But with his palmarès he could be more famous if he wants. He and probably especially his agent look set on a path to raise his profile over the winter. Don’t expect him on every talk show and magazine cover from Tokyo to Toronto by December, far from it, just a few more appearances here and there.

          Who mentioned the drastically decline in Tour viewing? It varies from country to country but even in locations where it shrinking it’s single-digit rather than more.

          • Had to go back an look: It was “Thomas Krogh” in the other Lombardia thread:

            https://inrng.com/2025/10/il-lombardia-2025-preview/#comment-250910

            I read an article on the German figures specifically and I’ll try to dig it up.

          • My point about the profile isn’t just about Pog, but cycling in general. Peter Sagan was featured in a German TV ad a long time ago, and the common reaction was, “Who the h… is he?” Back in the Katusha-Alpecin days, they promoted some kind of shampoo with a few prominent riders. I still remember that not a single friend, colleague, or acquaintance had any idea who these guys were.

            I understand much of this is due to cycling not being a major sport in Germany, but even so…

          • Don’t we need to check ourselves here, as cycling fans? What realistic expectation do we have of our heroes becoming global household names. Globally, it’s a niche sport.

            But this doesn’t mean Pog won’t be taking on some serious commitments to promote himself. He’s a likeable guy. Should go far But… Maybe this will be a signifier of the beginning of the end of his reign. Another Sagan analogy is that as his promotional work grew, his results declined. (Thats my feeling. It’s not based on statistical analysis!).

          • Here in Scotland, I don’t know one person who knows who Tadej Pogacar is – he’s a cycling fan. (I’m not counting my wife because she only knows via osmosis.)

          • And I think it’s absolutely fine for it to be a niche sport.
            I’d also suggest to Pog that he has plenty of money – does he really need more? Would one want to be recognised walking down the street? Most people would tire of that pretty quickly.

      • He should get a new designer for his own brand. Even the logo feels like it was done by a kid and much of it smacks of Sagan-esque eastern european tackiness. (I’m of e. euro descent and like my lace doilies, thank you very much but I also grew up sticking to relatives white “leather” furniture in the summer and seeing my uncles interesting suits…

        • I know exactly what you mean. My heritage traces back to East Prussia, and my wife is quarter Slovenian (though she can’t stand Pog, which is part of an intra-Slovenian feud that, like most things from the Balkans, makes no sense to outsiders… 😉 ).

          And I’m not sure I understand the whole personal brand stuff. Sagan’s didn’t really work but I can also see that Ayuso (or his sponsors) seem to have some ideas.

          Maybe it’s down to the riders drawn to the sheer craziness of a sport that demands enduring horrible roads to Roubaix or spending three weeks in stifling heat, just centimeters away from drunken, screaming Dutchmen. 🙂

          • have to admit I’m so over athletes logos in general…

            put two letters together in some vague symbol or use whatever random animal or mascot feels appropriate for a teenager who barely has a personality beyond ‘I like to ride bikes/kick balls/throw balls/hit balls’…

            sportsmen/women branding is the lamest thing in the world, and weirdly Pog’s exceptionally ugly TP kinda makes me like him more cause it’s so naff and thoughtless it shows how little he really cares – rightfully so!

            I’d be very happy to never see a sportsman initial based logo ever again.

      • With talk of Vin also doing the Giro, I really hope either both Pog and Vin do it or neither do it.

        • I hope Vingo will do it, but not Pog. Vingo seems to have peaked and a full UAE team with – say – IDT and Almeida will easily challenge him and VLAB. Since Pog’s transformation from ’23 to ’24 I much prefer races without him.

        • Personally I only want to see Pogacar-Vingegaard in one Grand Tour. It is exciting as long as we can believe the race winner is uncertain. But the same person would win both contests if there were two, making it a whole less interesting the secind time around. (Law of diminshing returns applies: the rarity of the contest creates interest in the outcome).

        • But if only Vin does the Giro, he inevitably wins it.
          I’d prefer neither, for the sake of the race.

11. I wonder if TV directors could start showing us more of the “race for 5th” or whatever. With increased coverage of those mini-duels plus the associated UCI points perhaps riders would put on a good show back there?

    Not that I’ve watched it for a while, but I believe this is what they do in F1?

    • You could say that’s already the foundation for all the subplots in the Grand Tours—the points classification, KOM, young rider, and the daily stage hunters. And it works (kind of—I doubt many people tune in just to follow the fight for the white jersey in, say, the Tour). But breaking it down even further into the “exciting” battle for 5th or 13th place in a one-day race feels like stretching it a bit too far.

      If you want to watch a great race, skip the big events and focus on the second-tier ones. This year’s Paris-Tours was far more entertaining and unpredictable than the Lombardian bore. TV directors should take note—look for races that showcase real competition and classic team dynamics.

    • With Simmons, then Pogačar, then Evenepoels group things were stretched to cover more and it could have been good to have more coverage of the chase behind but this means more camera motos which is hard to make happen.

12. Cycling is defined by great rivalries. The gist of many comments above is that we’ve come to the end of a year in which Tadej was unrivaled. Chapeau to him! Such dominance cannot last long, but I’m of equal minds to salute him and to hope that things change soon!

    • And there virtually is no rivalry – sometimes, if we’re lucky, there is between Vin and Pog in a grand tour.
      Eve has beaten Pog once in a one-day race – the 2022 WC RR.

      • No, Pog skipped the WC RR in 2022. I’m not sure Remco has ever won a road race with Pog at the start.

        • 2023 Lombardia and 2022 San Sebastian (Pogacar DNF’d)

          • Pog won Lombardia ’23. San Seb ’22 is correct though.

          • Where does one get such “facts” from, a hallucinatiing AI bot crap?
            Pogi won every single Lombardia he ever attended.

          • In case you didn´t know, Mick, you funny guy, a lapsus is a small, unintentional error made in speech or writing.

            The race Nick had in mind and meant to write was, of course, 2023 Liège-Bastogne-Liège (which Remco Evenepoel indeed did win and Tadej Pogcar DNF).

        • ‘Skipped’ in the sense of ‘finished 19th’ 😉

      • So, the 2022 WC RR is the only race Eve has beaten Pog where Pog didn’t crash?

        • There were some strange dynamics in that race (2022 WRR). Remco got into the front split when a large group went off the front. All the favourites were in the group behind, but since nearly all of them had someone in the front group the chase never really got properly organised. Pogacar was stuck in the group behind. Remco easily won from the front group when he dropped the rest of that group.

          I personally would not really use this as evidence that Remco can beat Pogi in a one-day race where both are contesting the win mano-a-mano.

          • But it’s the only victory over Pog than Eve has ;o)

13. You’ve managed to skip the Vuelta wrap-up and the Lombardia preview, and coincidentally avoided all the Israel Premier Tech controversy and outcry. Avoiding positioning on the issue and its side aspects, and avoiding reading unpleasant comments.

    • They’re not obliged to cover everything. This is a free to read blog, provided entirely voluntarily. Go look somewhere else for conflict.

      Oh and here you go:
      https://inrng.com/2025/10/il-lombardia-2025-preview/

    • That sounds like a win to me, however inadvertent.😊

    • I’m quite glad of that.

14. A strong contender for ‘Entitled comment of the year’.

15. Oh gosh, so many fans of two dopes…sorry TUES, Wiggins and Froome/SKY, who did not ride a single race clean, have courage to comment Pogacar’s win!::)

    • tbh I think you’ll find those commenting above who dislike Pog also dislike Froome and Wiggo… aware it may seem like patriotic grumbles or bad faith but if you’re not from these fair shores but firstly you should know there are many Pog fans in the UK (including me) and that the UK is a bit more confused/nuanced in its sporting hate/lovefests!! We have the capacity on a regular basis to hate our sporting heroes, and then occasionally revert to loving them (or vice versa – Andy Murray and David Beckham probably the best recent examples of hate>love while maybe Wiggo is a good example of love>mild dislike, while Froome made little to no impact on the general British psyche!!).

      I doubt there’s anybody here (and probably in many other countries!) who dislike Pog and suspects him of doping who doesn’t also dislike both Froome and Wiggo and suspect them of doping also.

      tbh is a tiring debate that says more about those willing to engage in the misery of unknowns and look down on other hardcore cycling fans with peak levels of condescension than it does anything about Pog.

      • Dave – I get what you’re saying, but I take issue with the last paragraph. From this point forward I’m going to try to avoid conjecture out of respect for Inrng, but unfortunately there is plenty of reason to be skeptical about UAE. It doesn’t mean they’ve done anything wrong, but it’s about the history of cycling in general and specific people associated with the team right now.
        As for Wiggins and Froome, there might not be a fire, but there sure is a lot of smoke. So I understand why people would choose not to focus on those things, but hopefully you can understand why some people do. As for myself, I’m going to try to ignore what I don’t like and enjoy what I do like, even if that means ignoring certain races because of the predictability of the result.

    • Why – wrongly in my case – assume that people are fans of Wiggins/Froome/Sky? That’s only in your head.

      Also, I have nothing against Pog – I’m just not interested in watching someone so dominant. I find it dull.

16. Tadej is good. Suspiciously good. Add the fact that many of his lieutenants have gone from good riders to elite. The most notable being Wellens (and Soler). That is what gives me pause.

    • Anecdata on a sample of 1 but it might also be more reassuring if Hirschi hadn’t looked a shadow of his UAE self at Tudor this year. But as a counterpoint ‘leave Quickstep and die’ in career terms has been a theme for many years, so who knows? As a general point, I think the expressions above regarding a lack of substantive investigative journalism and both the media and UCI acting overwhelmingly as fanboys in this era compared to some others are on point.

      • I get irritated by the claim there is a “lack of substantive investigative journalism” to explain the fact that the riders currently winning racing have not been caught doping. It is not the case that “a lot of is evidence being ignored”. Instead, there really is no evidence beyond the fact that teams are being run by people with a dubious past (and long past the careers of anyone racing now). But apart from this, no-one has any evidence at all of wrong-doing. And all the wittering on the internet from people who have convinced themselves otherwise does not change this key fact.

        Until some evidence turns up, we have to conclude they are, probably, clean. If evidence turns up, then we should change our minds. But not until it does.

        • It’s not an explanation, more of an ‘eternal vigilance is the price of a clean[ish] peloton’ idea.

        • plus1 John.

    • I just don’t agree.

      For me Wellens was already an excellent rider before UAE and many people (including me) were willing him to have the breakthrough seasons he’s gone on to have at UAE. I don’t really understand anyone who follows cycling closely who’s surprised to see what Wellens is doing now?

      Soler likewise might have been inconsistent (and has remained so at UAE) but was also an obviously talented rider who has only continued to be the strong rider we already knew he was?

      What I find strange is every time we have a new dominant rider on a new team we repeat this conversation – with Laporte on Visma, with many more on Sky etc, when in my view all were so obviously talented beforehand and had many results to prove it?

      Riders like Porte, Kwiato had top10 GC results before Sky, Soler had been 9th at Vuelta, Laporte had been 6th at Roubaix and 2nd at Dwars before Visma… I feel like those who revisit this conversation repeatedly are better to just give up on cycling because nothing will ever be good enough to alleviate your suspicions?

      There’s also a little arrogance to the opinion that just because you haven’t heard enough about nor know enough about *INSERT NAME* of an up&coming cyclist that they cannot be therefore be good enough to be an elite domestique?

      I personally think we should all chill… as none of us know enough to hold opinions worth arguing about? Anyone is free to suspect doping and give up on the sport and likewise others are free to either believe or suspend their disbelief, it’s the incessant arguing with no proof that’s terminally dull…

      It’s also helpful to remember that good riders who have previously featured in finales of major races being asked to ride the first 100-150km as a domestique at high intensity should not surprise anyone that they perform better at those shorter distance efforts than they might have when racing a full distance for themselves. If you then factor in more money for better training, coaches plus clearer race schedules/responsibilities, a jump in any domestiques capabilities should not surprise.

      There’s very few riders in the last fifteen years who haven’t followed a fairly expected trajectory from their early career once we had a vague idea of their talent, Froome is the most obvious but there’s fairly well documented reasons why, which leaves it’s up to us to believe them or not.

      On the Pogacar issue… something that plays on my mind is that his talent is so outlandishly impressive that if he were doping the absurd accumulation of wins is a pretty bad way to hide it! We’re close to the argument ‘if it flys like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck’ – but again that can be spun both ways depending on your beliefs/suspicions.

      I just think getting lost in this merry go round of suspicion is a straight line to depression and leaves me wondering why anyone would follow the sport because if you’re suspicious of Wellens and Soler you must be suspicious of almost everything in the sport?

      • +1. If it turns out that some nefarious practices are behind this then I won’t be surprised, but I’ll wait until there’s actual evidence. Until then I’ll continue to enjoy races that feature complexity and uncertainty (e.g. Paris-Tours) and hope that Pogačar’s dominance still leaves some room for these!

      • oldDave,

        You may be right but… How do you explain Del Toro’s meteor step forward this year? He is 21. He is now #2 on PCS’ individual ranking (#3 on UCI). He started in 13 races in sep-oct, won 7 (!) and top-10 in 4 more. Including 3 of Pog’s wins. Even better than Hirschi’ magical autumn ‘24. Before *he* left UAE and returned to normal strength.

        There is something going on in UAE. Either they are incredibly lucky and miles ahead everyone else on all physical training parameters. Or something else is in play.

        • This is not evidence, it is innuedo. A young poorly trained rider has seen rapid improvment between the ages of 20 and 21 when he joins a professional team and starts training properly for the first time. UAE have a huge budget, and an excellent scouting operation. They can afford the best riders, and to invest in young talent.

          Until evidence of wrong-doing actually turns up, the only reasonably conclusion is that the riders are, probably, clean. And if evidence does turn up, I will change my mind (but not until it does).

          • That “poorly trained” rider only won the Tour de l’Avenir when he was at “A.R. Monex Pro CyclingTeam”, a team which obviously didn’t training his 19y old rider “properly” then?
            Evil UAE doctors maybe could travle in time to juice them up even before they joyn the team. Or maybe it’s the flat earth all along.

17. Unfortunately because of cyclings history being so intertwined with substance misuse of pretty much every performance enhancing kind this sort of chat is inevitable. It’s unfortunate for everyone; riders, fans and blog hosts alike. On the face of it, it is reasonable to expect people to withhold from voicing their suspicion about someone until there is some sort of evidence of wrong doing. That would be the precedent in normal life. But because of the specific history of cycling it is unrealistic to expect people not to talk about it. Some of the people involved with UAE are very dodgy. Gianetti in particular being a 90s Riccardo Ricco in terms of death courting wrong doery. Add that to that particular teams sustained brilliance as a team over the course of this season, and one particular riders almost unprecedented levels of consistent phenomenalness and you have plenty to talk about in cycling land. Whether you want to or not.

18. To start with the obvious, Pogacar might be on some unspecified PEDs, but this is true of any other pro cyclist.
    What I don’t see is what kind of PED this should be. Some oxygen-carrying vector for the incredible endurance, certainly. But Pogacar also has incredible explosive acceleration to drop competitors or win sprints, incredible capacity to recover from recurring efforts (remember MvdP’s exhaustion after a week of TdF), and incredible ability to hold form from February to October. Is there a hint of a physiologic mechanism that might achieve all this? a hint of a substance that would target that hypothetical mechanism? If there is I’d love to be enlightened. (In contrast, erythropoietin was a well known natural hormone used for treatment of patients with anemia well before it became prevalent in endurance sports.)
    The alternative explanation is that Pogacar has won the genetic lottery. Sure, a very rare event, but it has happened before with Merckx (I know about his suspension for amphetamines, but these will give you a momentary boost followed by a crash, no explanation for Merckx’s dominance)

    • One thing among many that we have to implicitly trust is that the UCI tests for technological fraud are sufficiently robust.

19. Closing the comments as despite the request, it’s become the trial by blog comments.

Comments are closed.