A final stage and abbreviated to Paris only but this won’t alter the sport. A prestigious stage win awaits and potentially a duel between Tadej Pogačar and Mathieu van der Poel.
Stage 20 Review: if a “grand tour is an exercise in hierarchy” to quote Antoine Blondin, or a Bayesian simulator to use science, then how much can the last mountain stage tell us? Even a day with 5,450m of vertical gain and 70 points for anyone capable of passing the marked mountain points first was probably going to confirm rather than reveal.
Still, There’s plenty to be said for replicating results on a day when many struggled to hoist themselves out of bed and even scaling a bridge over an autoroute was sapping. Richard Carapaz proved he could even improve on the performances of recent days made him the rider of the day, going from a one point lead in the mountains competition to a 56 point unassailable and incontestable win in the mountains competition.
Similarly Mads Pedersen hauled himself over the Alps, attacking at one point to bridge across to the breakaway and then take maximum points at the intermediate sprint to secure the green jersey, an immense ride. The Tour has it’s Supercombatif prize and it’s surely between Carapaz and Pedersen, probably Carapaz but there are good arguments to litigate either way.
The day’s breakaway was reduced to Carapaz, Sep Kuss and Jai Hindley on the lower slopes of the Col de la Sarenne. Another day, another trio starting the climb to Alpe d’Huez with three and half minutes’ lead. But this time Pogačar wasn’t in pursuit mode.
The higher slopes of the Sarenne had no crowds, the road closed to spectators. It was pleasant to see the mountain like this, and no bad advert too for cyclists wanting to explore this road. But also a premonition of what awaits us after the Tour when the sport reverts to sparse crowds and silence.
Kuss led over the Sarenne, but only just. Carapaz had the American in sight and was closing. Then Kuss crashed twice and the second time he was lucky there was netting on the exit of the bend, while Carapaz sped past. Despite the dirt on his kit from falling Kuss looked the fresher climber and could have reversed matters. Only Carapaz is among the cast of riders who can be impossible to bring back if they get five metres.
Behind Decathlon-CMA CGM had tried to ratchet up the pace in an all-or-nothing move to dislodge Isaac del Toro off third place overall only it came to nothing with Seixas unable to sustain the move and cracking, while Del Toro had the luxury help of Tadej Pogačar. Pogačar could have won the stage if he wished but played butler, a high altitude Jeeves.
Evenepoel attacked on the final run to Alpe d’Huez, symbolic perhaps but notable as he’d survived 5,000m of vertical gain, each stomp on the pedals in the final kilometres a serving to every media outlet in Belgium who’d declared he was not a grand tour contender.
As Pogačar and Del Toro came into the finish together they were photo-bombed by Lenny Martinez who secured his fifth place overall, albeit 13 minutes down but he’ll take plenty from the consistent performance and how he was one of the few to hold firm in the third week, all while having turned 23 during this year’s Tour.
The Route: “On n’est pas a Thoiry, ici“. Well almost, there’s a presentation in Thoiry for the crowds and host politicians but then the riders are bussed to Paris. It’s 89km and laps of the Champs-Elysées before moving to the 15km long Champs-Elysées – Montmartre circuit. The stage is reduced from 133km because of a police shortage with the emergency services mobilised to help with public safety, notably in the Cap Ferret/Arcachon area. In pure cycling terms nobody is missing out on the early parade and we might see a lap or two reserved for this before the racing begins.
If the Champs-Elysées-Montmartre circuit already feels familiar there’s still a difference as after the descent of Montmatre, the course takes the riders to the Place de l’Etoile/Arc de Triomphe and then to the Champs-Elysées. Last year the descent led to the Place de la Concorde. The meaning here is that there’s 10km to the finish from the top of Montmartre when there was 6km last year so more chance for teams to organise a chase.
The Contenders: the circuit has a feel of a spring classic with the repeat cobbled climbs and if it’s only 89km everyone is tired and so it doesn’t need 200km to make the difference.
Mathieu van der Poel (Alpecin-PremierTech) is the obvious pick, the punch to jump away on the climb, the ability to win the sprint and he’s had this stage in mind for a long time. Jasper Philipsen is a second card to play in the sprint.
Tadej Pogačar (UAE) got beaten here last year, one of the rare moments he lost a bike race in a straight contest. He’s been talking about this stage too and this makes life harder for the sprinters as his moves will distance them. He’ll get extra stimulation from going up against Van der Poel, his arch rival for the classics.
Mads Pedersen (Lidl-Trek) ought to be tired but so far he’s been a force of nature in this Tour.
Olav Kooij (Decathlon-CMA CGM) and Biniam Girmay (NSN) can hope for a sprint and an opportunity.
Jayco pair Michael Matthews and Mauro Schmid have a chance. Netcompany-Ineos still have chance of salvation and Filippo Ganna might be their best bet. There’s no French stage winner so far and Romain Grégoire (Groupama-FDJ) has a chance but he’s looked fried.
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Van der Poel |
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Pogačar, Philipsen |
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Kooij, Matthews, Girmay, Schmid, Kanter |
Weather: sunny and 24°C.
TV: KM0 is at 5.55pm and the finish is forecast for 7.30pm CEST.
This year’s tour has seemed to go so fast really disappointed no Australians have one a stage stay up late hopping
Michael Matthews has to be in with a starter’s chance, although I’d agree with the MvdP pick. Matthews probably needs a much longer race to excel though, as evidenced by his MSR and Worlds performances over the years. He’s getting on, but I think there’s still a good win or three to come…
What Mathews needs to win is to time travel back about 6 years before pogi and mvdp were ripping up the peloton!
This sits better here – @inrng if you consider you can zap the other copy under the previous post.
Nation notes:
– unless tomorrow we get some surprise, for the *very first time in history*, no Italian, French or Spaniard will win even a single stage at the TDF.
The three countries are struggling quite much to fight for TDF stage victories in the so-called “post 2020 cycling”, unlike Belgium or the Netherlands.
Actually, we had got very close to the null score in 2021 and 2022, when a single French win each “saved the day”. 2013 and 2016 also had been close calls, whereas in the past normally if some of those three countries was struggling it meant that one of the others was grabbing the stage opportunities, for example from the end of the 70s to halfway through the 80s when the French were on the fore as Italy and Spain were declining.
Things come and go, the Belgian and Dutch had had a dry season approximatedly mid 00s to mid 10s.
– unless Remco crashes out, tomorrow it will be the first time in 45 years that a Belgian finishes a TDF as the runner-up, Van Impe 1981 behind Hinault being the previous one. I’d even go as far as to say we haven’t had any Belgian climbing a TDF GC podium, as Van Den Broeck 2010 had been actually 5th on the road.
It’s hard to mirror how brutal was the shift for the Belgian after the 70s… not only they had had Merckx, but they were also used to be around in GC podia with a variety of good athletes who maybe never became serial winners but could be there in a fine season. In the 60s they had endured a very short break between Planckaert and Merckx, but then it wasn’t just Eddy – they could count on Van Springel, Bracke, Van Impe, Maertens, De Muynck, Pollentier, Criquelion…
Between 1968 and 1982 both included they never had a season without any GT podium, and some years like 1970 or 71 the Belgian occupied 4 or 5 out of 9 total available podium spots across the 3 GTs – thanks to Merckx? Yes, but even if you totally discount him, you’re left only with 1969, 1973 and 1974 lacking any Belgian on a GT podium – only 3 out of 15 seasons, and, let me insist, that’s if you “cancel” Merckx.
They never podiumed again until the 3rd spot at the 1995 Vuelta (!) by Johan Bruyneel (!!!) racing for the super-ONCE. Not a contender, anyway. After 14 years of total void.
Then again, De Gendt at the Giro 2012. 18 years later. Again, not exactly a pure GT contender.
This says quantity about the weight of the context which GT cyclists have to face in Belgium. And it’s not like they don’t try to “nurture” that kind of rider: in recent years I recall Vansevenant, De Plus, Van Eetvelt, Van Wilder, Vervaeke, Vandenabeele, sadly Lambrecht (a whole different story) all being hugely promising than turning out not really potential GT contenders. And what will be of Uijtdebroecks…?
Next? Widar? (More a Lenny of sort maybe) – Van Kerckhove? Vanhuffel?
Some of us don’t even really notice where the riders come from Gabriele. Its not as if any of the rider’s countrymen can take credit for the win if someone from their country wins.
More interesting to me is that there have only OFFICIALLY been three non-European winners of the Tour in its entire history. I won’t name them. It should be fairly easy for readers to guess.
Cadel, Lemond, and Froome?
Froome is officially British.
And he won his yellow jerseys before Brexit 😉
Bernal. I had to look that up.
@Bubble Wrap, you can help yourself with the little flags many website offering result sheets provide along with the rider name 😉
That said, why the data about non European looks to you more interesting? Perhaps to better understand some geopolitical characteristics of the sport?
Oh, wait, sadly this is still a very nationalistic sport both in fans’ attitude (which is where the above post stems from, but that’s a different story), and, much more relevant, across the whole marketing dynamics of sponsors, broadcasting TVs, distribution of races and their type etc.
That’s also why in Europe, too, it’s still a mass sport in some countries and a niche one or little more so in others, with a set of relevant consequences produced by that divide.
Wait, am I a Nationalist if I root for athletes from my own home nation?
Who knows? From my perspective you are just someone who has bought into the notion that entirely artificial and made up nations, none of which exist as anything except fictions, make any difference to the performance of a given cyclist.
Whether you’re a nationalist or not is up to you – but you are expressing an aspect of national identification that aligns with nationalism
Remember, it’s not all xenophobia – Nelson Mandela was a nationalist
Anyway – vive la tour
Big thanks to the no 1 cycling site @inrng
Oh good lord, you’re pedantic.
Like caring for one’s country and the welfare of one’s fellow citizens (nationalism) is a bad thing.
I think you need a hobby that’s not talking down to others on a comment board.
And all the people went amen.
Are you answering to me or Bubble Wrap? o___O
He’s the one dismissing a nationalistic approach.
I don’t share a nationalistic perspective and would rather see it left to the 19th century it historically belongs to, BUT… hey, man, I just offered a nation-based take and defended it as meaningful.
If you referred to me, ops, a bit hard not to talk you down when that’s the comprehension skills involved.
But maybe you were just trying to answer to Bubble Wrap, who actually goes hard on nationalism, and pushed the wrong button.
Luckily, these are the scraps 😉 of my time, a small percentage compared to actually riding a bike or watching races which on turn is a small percentage vs. many more activities which are OT here.
Try to get rid of your car and related traffic jams, leave behind mass commuting (unless it’s by bike), same for buying in big malls ir supermarkets, reduce using social networks including whatsapp, renounce being exploited in a meaningless job… and you might discover there’s more free time in life than you seem to imagine, plus you could take up fights on blogs just to have fun, or because you believe in something, instead of looking this bitter ^___^
(And, yes, I am a pretty fast writer, not just climber)
Great post, loved reading this.
I think about Uijdebroeks often.
The peloton has clearly skewed younger as training methods/power meters etc have become more freely available but there was also moment a few years ago where it felt like we were on the cusp of a whole raft of young talent flooding the Tour – with excitement around how Uijdebroeks, Ayuso and others might develop…
It feels a bit like a daydream now? As if we all collectively realised the rider Pog was about to develop into come 2023, and now the question is more whether any of the *even* younger talents will ever reach him before he retires, let alone surpass? I’m sure there be some revisionism that Uijdebroeks and Ayuso were not thought by many to be on a path to challenging Pog, but these were heady days in 2022!
Now there’s more caution around how far Del Toro or Seixas will get, despite the hype, given that it seems absurd to suggest today that Remco, Uijdebroeks or Ayuso will ever get anywhere near Pogacar without dramatic change in status quo or decline or retirement.
2020-2030 will be a remarkable period to look back on, where everything and nothing seems to have changed at once. It’s fun comparing this to the times you’ve just detailed in Belgian cycling.
What’s going to be interesting is also following up how do they fare – without any comparison with Pogi, which is utterly meaninglesse! – once they are, say, 26-27 yo.
Remco actually became a substantial athlete, few can complain, really, save for people who aren’t used to the “usually unpredictable” gap between promises and palmarés.
Pidcock also was reasonably up to (reasonable) expectations.
Both true class acts, no doubt.
Almeida could also be a good example if he’s able to get back to 2025 level after this dire year.
Ayuso is still in the mix to some day become a GT relevant athlete, maybe an Arensman of sort (also a “next big thing” back then), in case he hasn’t hit his ceiling but Cian or Carlos Rodríguez look on a rougher path, as Tiberi.
Gaudu was crossing swords with Pogi and Vingo at the Pa-Ni and now FDJ is seeking a way out of his contract.
The Norwegians also have a serious tradition of hyper-hyped juvenile athletes probably only comparable to what Eastern Europe used to.
Then, one also can observe how older athletes like Carapaz confirm their qualities, proportional to their age now beyond prime, notwithstanding the novelties of post-covid cycling, same as others did like Thomas, Roglic, Caruso, the Yates…
—
(P.s. I had forgotten above Lecerf among potential future GT Belgian hopes)
@oldDAVE to be pedantic in ITT it’s the other way round – Pog can’t come close to challenging Remco.
And the past is littered with promising youngsters destined for big things who didn’t make it (in lots of sports beyond cycling too) so, who knows, maybe Seixas has reached his ceiling already (unlikely as it seems currently)?
Yes, this is what I’ve thinking/saying the last few days also – agree.
Even earlier this year I was simply assuming we’d get P vs S within a few years baring accidents etc – but now it feels like not only might S not progress as much as expected (unlikely as you say) but he may progress and still come nowhere near P before P decides to hang up his cleats.
Obviously we all still expect a duel one day, but 11mins (and it could’ve been 15+ had P really put his foot down a few more times) is a giant gap to close.
And yes there’s always been talented youngsters who’ve not made it, so in one sense nothing has changed in the 2020s, at the same time we can all see the vast differences in the sport almost everyday.
Life often feels pretty complex but with this the explanations all feel quite obvious; virtual riding(easier access to power/heart meters) + carb revolution along with some bike tech like wider tyres etc. That’s all that’s changed and the result is lowered barrier to entry for younger riders and more sustainable energy expenditure in races for everyone – both of which have changed everything.
Pogacar’s rise is strange because it’s sort of part and not part of this story, he’s the poster boy for most of these changes but really his talent would likely have taken him to the top anyway and his story may be more one of cycling widening its reach/pool of talent beyond the traditional nations.
I agree with you that we don’t know how much Seixas will improve in the next few years. He won’t have the “easy ways of improving” typical of most 19-year-olds since his training and life-style are pretty much optimised already. If he doesn’t fill out too much and stays motivated then I think he will be challenging to win the Tour in 3-4 years time: his performances are more convincing than either Ayuso or Uitjebroeks. But there will also likely be some rider who we don’t know about who also challenges for the Tour: someone who wasn’t optimized at 19 and has plenty of room to improve.
PS. And yes, I think it also depends on Pogacar not being as good as he is now. But by then Pogi will be over 30, and have been at the top for over 10 years. Will he still be motivated, and will he want to continue if he can not win in a Pogi-esque way? Only time will tell.
Might the difference between now and ‘the olden days’ be that access to ‘the numbers’ allows people (us) to think (I’d put that in italics if I knew how to) they have found the next big thing. But, as time moves on it turns out being able to produce 400watts for an hour aged 18 and weighing 50 kilos (exaggeration) isn’t the only thing that matters. Various intangibles also come into play such as bike handling, capacity for development, ability to process 10,000 calories per hour (exaggeration), love of altitude, adaptability to altitude, boredom threshold with training, access to women, access to alcohol, visions of a life beyond pasta and skinless chicken breast etc etc etc. Pogacar obviously has all of these things plus a million things more, whereas someone like Ujdebroeks (sic) might only have the numbers and no capacity to move above them. The other extreme would be someone like Cavendish who couldn’t produce the numbers for love nor money but still made it, and then some.
Race smarts also matters. And some riders are much more efficient than others: they use less watts to go at the same speed. Both suggest that the raw numbers are less important than many people think.
Cavendish is a sprinter who does not have a lot of power, but has brilliant timing and the ability to surf the peloton and read a race. Johnny Milan, for example, just has lots of watts. Ben Healy, in a different context, is someone who is really efficient on the bike and does not have lots of power. And we all know that Remco is much more efficient on a time-trial bike that Ganna or Tarling.
With respect that’s nonsense. Cavendish had huge power relative to his weight. The numbers are most of what gets you the win.
Robbie McEwen’s analysis was that Cavendish did not have as much outright power as Greipel or Kittel, but made up for it by carrying less weight and having a body position which looked like a time trial helmet.
This is something Cavendish himself admits: his power numbers by themselves are miles away from getting a professional contract.
Vaughters (whatever you think of him) is very clear about how Healy’s numbers are not very good. And he has talked about his frustration with riders who “have the numbers” but can not get a result. And that the result not the numbers is what matters.
People who sit on a stationary bike and pretend they are racing on Strava often do not appreciate how much things like handling and efficiency affect the outcome of real races.
Pedersen made a great gift to MvdP securing the Green Jersey for good before the last stage, so no temptation for the team to have him on domestic duties to support any Philipsen points bid. Now the Alpecin duo will be able to play the double card on the front and from the bunch, work or not where you feel more opportune.
Mads was a machine yesterday (Saturday), shockingly good.
Not just yesterday. The last 3 days. Truly outstanding rides.
Just 27 days to the best Tour of the year!
LOL
Tour de France, better than Christmas, as it’s only 49 weeks before it comes ’round again. Great comments Gabriele, BTW. A stack of stats there!
It was maybe inevitable that Seixas would fade in the final week. With retrospection his fourth place will feel astonishing at nineteen and frequently matching the best climbers – except Pogacar of course. Can he improve to challenge or even win in 2027 and leave Pogacar stranded on five official victories along with Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain?
Perhaps not in one year but certainly within three. He will be improving for several years to come whilst Pog is (perhaps!) near his ceiling. One also wonders what more Jonas can do (or how he even feels about cycling these days) and where IDT fits into this mix.
The team has released comments attributed to Vingegaard which are rather positive about his recovery and return to racing, and they made a big deal of him having dinner with the others and wishing them well before departing.
That was undoubtedly intended primarily for consumption by the remaining riders and staff, and of course his assessment might be very different once he is a couple of weeks into physiotherapist sessions with painful rehab exercises.
Team management are understood to be quite excited about the new partnership they’ll be unveiling soon, breaking ground as the first WorldTour team to have an official training wheel supplier.
Collarbone is a pretty easy break to recover one. Not the most essential bone, there mostly to stabilise your shoulder. You can actually live without it, if needs be (complete removal is apparently an option, if someone has broken one many times and plating isn’t really possible anymore). Not really load bearing either, so it’s possible to get back on the bike relatively quickly.
It’s not a career affecting break.
I agree.
It’s what it did to his mental state that matters more.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he loses even more time on descents when he returns, which used to be a strong area for him.
We will see. Without a doubt he will be super strong. He already is. But how much of a progress he has left is also a matter whether he is “slow” or “fast” responder to the training. Some athletes quite early hit the ceiling and their progress stops or sometimes even declines after early peak, especially if not maintained properly.
His team benefactors will expect and demand otherwise but I wouldn’t be surprised if Pogacar, left to his own decision, opted against chasing a sixth Tour. I haven’t heard anything quoted from him either way, just a feeling.
Dunno, he seemed to have fun at this tour … which maybe raises the chances of him wanting to ride again next year?
@betabug – yes, in complete contrast to last year.
He might miss one year, but I expect looking at the spotlight rather than being in it would be irresistible. He only has so many years in him.
I am pretty sure he will want that sixth tour and a win in the final stage. Armstrong has been egging him on that “he knows what the real record is”. I can even see him set his eyes on Cavendish’s stage win record.
I cannot predict Pogacar’s next move?
Pressure from the team, historic goals, public dislike, Pog’s own boredom?
There’s good arguments for and against everything.
The only thing that I can see which is certain is he wants Roubaix.
I also think he has designs on five monuments in a year.
So where does that leave the Tour?
Team pressure would usually say he goes to the Tour next year, but this is a slightly different situation to normal. First UAE have their own tour I bet they’d like him to ride again, second he’s not just competing for the Tour he’s wiping the floor and there’s a growing dissatisfaction they all must be aware of. For him to miss a year and come back to a heroes welcome plus perhaps a renewed hunger that prolongs his career isn’t a guarantee but it’s still possibility they could factor into a decision. Finally despite Del Toro not being a favourite if Jonas rides, he’s an able deputy, especially with Almeida as a domestique next year, and might bring some love back to the team with a great defeat or surprise win.
As for Pog, it’s a difficult question as to whether he can do uae tour, the classics and ride the Giro – but a season of Classics, Giro, Vuelta might be the perfect antidote to bring him back to the Tour with refreshed vigour and less audience dislike in 2027. My hunch if this were possible this is what he would do.
At the Tour itself, winning the final stage is the only goal he’s currently missing out on, but from what I saw yesterday, it looks as though it will be extraordinarily difficult for him to do this so isn’t a goal he can count on. As for winning seven… it sounds like he’s not bothered and it’s not like anyone is seriously questioning his record compared to Lance, but the truth is, from what we’ve just seen taking a year out and coming back to win another two isn’t exactly unlikely as it stands…
But his quote of looking to Djokovic in the face of public criticism though does make it sound like he’ll be at the Tour for the foreseeable – and tbh good for him either way, to have his capabilities and be able to choose whatever you want to win is a pretty god given situation…
@oldDAVE I really don’t think his team will allow him to miss the Tour – any other race, yes, but not the biggest of the big. Well not until his powers diminish so much that he isn’t likely to win.
I’d imagine that as well as Roubaix, Pog wants a Vuelta win to join that select band of riders who have won all 3 GTs.
Pogacar is hugely popular amongst the people watching at the roadside. And he generally improves the TV figures when he is in the race. There are only a small number who don’t like Pogacar, their importance is given far too much prominence.
Apart from feeling a bit tired at the end of the last Tour, there is no evidence that he will skip the Tour any time soon. Sure, it isn’t his favourite race, and he finds the media spotlight tiring. But he enjoys the challenge of racing against the biggest names in the sport in the biggest races: this, rather than records, is what seems to motivate him.
Yes, I have absolutely no evidence for this!
Was just a hunch.
But I would say, as you both suggest, it’s still unlikely!
@Martijn Wouldn’t it be great if Pog in an interview at some point cuts Armstrong down with an answer about 5?
Once again thanks to IR for helping us make sense of GT racing. The race would mean less without his daily wise words.
Totally agree. I will miss the Tour but miss the daily blog just as much. The first website I open in a morning.
Thanks again to the esteemed Mr Ring for the best and thankfully least hyperbolic of cycling blogs.
The Tour has been a bit of a damp squib after stage 6, enlivened only by unfortunate crashes, night time testing and complaints of hot weather.
That last one did not stop the fastest ever stage at the Tour and a few others that came close.Even more so, it’s on course for the fastest ever Tour, beating last year’s record. Of course, the Tour is not the same every year and there’s lots of factors to consider, but it seems the riders themselves are the ones pushing harder every day and not the lack of mountainous terrain, or TT opportunities.
I suspect the success of Remco this year might well mean we’ll see some more then usual TT km’s in future Tours.
A 19 year old came fourth which is a big achievement but I fear that in the long run it will put even more pressure on youngsters to perform at WT standards (quite a few already do).
Its interesting you think the organisers would skew the route towards Remco. Surely if they are going to skew it towards anyone it will be the developing Seixas?
Do you think putting in more mountain stages will help Seixas against Pogacar etc ? Seixas is not a bad TT-er now and if he wants to win a GT, he’ll need to be up there with the best.
Carapaz saved this tour. Thanks Richie. Hopefully VDP or Pedersen save the final day too.
I hesitate to ask, but saved from what?
He doesn’t believe a human being is capable of riding 7 w/kg without some form of cheating and he will reply to this comment with his scientific proof of this.
Saving from utter and complete boredom. Thanks Mathieu for saving the day.
Admittedly, Pogi helped Mathieu to save the day, today… or wouldn’t you say so? 😉
(Of course I prefer a MvdP victory over a Pogi one anyday.)
Charles Bukowski, Betty Draper.
Thanks for the excellent reviews & previews, and to the comments from others.
From boredom, I presume…
No chainrings for the “force of nature”, Mads Pedersen?
He was almost talking himself out of it. Plus think he won’t be so fresh to make moves.
A question which I thought might come into play today but fortunately won’t.
Has anyone ever lost the green jersey on the final day?
After going through all the rigmarole of the photos and riding in formation, to then get pipped on the line must have been particularly falling.
I’m assuming it must have happened but I can’t remember it.
Thanks.
And thanks to our host and all contributors.
Falling should be Galling.
Robbie McEwan in 2003.
And a famous photo as he and O’Grady rubbed shoulders in the sprint.
I do remember that picture but didn’t realise it was so decisive.
I also thought it was Baden Cook
Thanks for the memory jog.
It was indeed Baden Cooke going head to head with McEwen for the stage and jersey on the final day in 2003.
It was on stage 3 of the 2005 race when McEwen was relegated to last place for his head clash with O’Grady, which cost McEwen the green jersey.
Thanks
Not the TdF, but Froome took the points jersey on the final day of the 2017 Vuelta by sprinting to a minor position and overhauling (a rather unhappy) Matteo Trentin.
Sean Kelly lost the green jersey in the final sprint on the Champs Elysees in 1984.
After the St 22 time trial, Kelly led Frank Hoste by 4 points. The next day, Vanderaerden won the sprint in Paris, but Hoste finished two positions higher than Kelly, finishing 3rd to Kelly’s 5th, and took the green jersey competition by 4 points.
Kelly was not pleased.
Thank you.
Does that mean that there are pictures of Kelly in green doing the whole ceremonial nonsense, maybe drinking a glass of champagne, before entering Paris and losing the jersey.
That would be quite a collector’s piece but maybe things were a little bit more low key in the 80s
The “ceremonial nonsense” is only something that has become a thing in the last 20 years. In Kelly’s era they treated it as a normal race day.
Many thanks Inner Ring for your excellent previews.
Yes, a huge achievement. It was undoubtedly a lot of work, which is really appreciated by everyone who reads the site.
I feel a bit disappointed by Pogacar turning nursemaid or doting dad rather than hoovering up the prizes and I don’t understand what was gained by doing it. Was IDT ever going to lose his place to Seixas yesterday? The Frenchman and his team could go no faster than the rest of the top five or six and eventually they couldn’t even hold that pace. As I suspected with his crash, the lack of a Vingegaard kind of made the top placings fight boring thereafter because he was the only one who could actually have at least tried to attack Pog thus necessitating a man against man situation on the mountainside. Instead Pog could put in his hero ride up the 21 hairpins and then just roll with IDT the day after. I would have preferred a Pog who wanted to fight Carapaz for the polka dots and the stage win but perhaps I live in a dream world and not the real one. But then again, even in the real one I recall that Froome once won the leader’s jersey, mountain jersey and points jersey at a Vuelta (2017 I believe) by sprinting for 11th place on the final day – much to the chagrin of Matteo Trentin who stood to win if Froome hadn’t bothered. That’s the kind of rider I want to see – a greedy one. In this respect, Pedersen and Carapaz did me proud, both greedy for their respective prizes and looking to maximise their outcomes. Either will make a worthy Supercombatif winner.
In closing I will add my thanks to our host for a superbly interesting and knowledgeable blog that is an essential race companion.
Pog can win a mountain stage (almost) whenever he wants but he has never won in Paris so I guess he wants to add this to his “collection”. P.S.
In Italian there’s a special word for trophy case which is bacheca; often referred used by RAI sportscasters in reference to Pogacar.
I take the point about appreciating a ‘greedy’ competitor, but I would see yesterday slightly differently: Pog has talked before about making memories and he may never get another opportunity to assist a teammate like that and share a celebration at the line.
Pogi will love the picture when they both make the “toro”, I bet.
Its about keeping his team-mate for the year(s) to come. IDT will have offers to be the main main elsewhere.
Perhaps but then he will have to reflect on the fact that he needed a nursemaid. He should also perhaps reflect on how things have gone for Ayuso lately.
He is well aware that he was ill during the last week and required team support to achieve the position he did achieve.
Pederson or Carapaz for most combative of the Tour?
Probably Carapaz who has had the daily prize four times I think but good arguments for Pedersen too.
I would be going with Pedersen if it was my call.
While he did not with the daily prize as many times, looking at the race as a whole his achievement of winning the green jersey racing from the front and overcoming the organisation’s attempt to stack the competition against him (like Sagan managed to do last decade) is more impressive.
I’d also go with Pedersen but curiously to me yesterday’s stage finale by Carapaz was among the most amazing shows of combativity – even if in that moment, alas, I was rooting totally for Kuss (very happy to see the attitude of both once crossed the finish line, and an excellent example of the silver lining in Kuss’ character, although that good spirit might take a pinch of racing aggressivity away from him under other circumstances).
In that finale, Carapaz had definitely bagged his main objective, had a decent GC top 10 all but secured, had won a stage already, and the break stage victory wasn’t 100% sure, either, so why stubbornly push yourself ahead as hard?
…all the above, besides human symphathy, are more or less the same reasons because of which I was hoping wholeheartedly Kuss could get it (and along the way improve Visma’s chance to get big sponsors).
When Kuss went, it was more than manifest that Carapaz wouldn’t get back to him unless, ahem, something happened. It became even clearer when on mixed terrain, theoretically more suited to Carapaz, the latter couldn’t come closer.
It’s hard to understand the level of suffering a cyclist is putting himself into at that sharp end of an extremely hard stage at the sharp end of an extremely demanding stage race. Every single fragment of your body and mind is shouting that you can know let it go and cruise to the end rightly proud and satisfied. But… no, Carapaz didn’t. Uff!
I give Carapaz huge credit for staying with Kuss enough to keep the pressure on. When Kuss went down the first time Carapaz had apparently lost a huge chunk of time, but Kuss didn’t know and pushed too hard. If Carapaz sat up earlier that never would have happened.
I get the impression MvdP has been saving himself for this for a while and will have his way over the more hard working Pedersen and Pogacar. Would love to see a surprise clip off for the win, ideally a French, Italian or Spanish rider based on Gabriele’s post!
+1
Isn’t it fun to look forward to the final day?
I never had anything against the sprint but even imagining what might happen today is more exciting than any CE sprint I can remember.
If a French rider were to take a flyer and make it you’d assume it would be Grégoire or Godon (maybe Turgis at a giant push?), if it were Italian Ganna (maybe Affini if he hadn’t retired), Spainards are harder?
Beyond those three nations, if there were to be a flyer, it’s still quite hard to call, I can only pull some names from those with known big engines – Mads Pedersen, Quinn Simmons, Magnus Cort, Ben Healey, Frank Van De Broek, Jonas Abrahansen, Josh Tarling, Fred Wright – but surely none will crest the climb with Pog and MVDP.
I’d like to see a French rider win or Quinn Simmons if it’s not Pog ticking off another must win – in truth it’s difficult to see beyond Pog vs MVDP which will still be mightly exciting
After having seen what happened on the Champs-Élysées in 1991 (if you know you know) I always found the last stage exciting – and I am not really one who likes sprints at all. But that one always seemed different.
All the best to Abdou.
Just reporting a glitch on the main page:
If you click on the image of the profile of stage 21, you get to the preview of stage 2.
Otherwise thanks for the hard work still providing us with keen insights!
Thanks to inrng for the previews and the postcards.
This blog is the dictionary to understand more the Tour and the various stakes involved. Thanks guys!
I’m assuming it’s still 25 points for the intermediate and 50 for the finish line, ie ASO haven’t done something hilarious and changed it to 70 so that Philipsen could theoretically win the green jersey today?
I was sure that the circuit with Montmartre on it would suit Evenpoel a little better than Pogacar, as the climb is not as punchy or long. I would love to see him try, but I don’t see him abandoning his new found humility and risk failure.
GC times are being taken after the laps up and down the Champs-Élysées so there is no risk for him … or anyone else.
Why can’t Remco read a race a bit better? Banging the handlebars again as he crosses the line. He was right, he could have won the stage if he had just kicked on a few minutes earlier, instead of hanging about on TP’s wheel. Everyone knew that Pog was riding for del Toro so he would have to go at his pace ( kind way of saying, drag him up the hill) because he had said so in his post race interview on Friday, clear statement of intent. I was shouting at the screen ‘ just attack , Remco, Tadej isn’t going to counter attack, he doesn’t care about the stage…’ but no. Let’s have another handlebar banging tantrum instead.
No wonder he is so good at time trials….
Tantrum? Please. He’s not the first to bang his handlebars in this Tour and probably won’t be the last.
Mercifully not every racer is so tactically astute and devoid of emotion three weeks into a Grand Tour.
I expect that’s what TP thinks as well !
I was a great fan of Remco’s, and I am glad that he has extended his range and capabilities, but he isn’t a candidate for the white jersey now. (Hint)
Only just, 2 months out I believe.
One of his soigneurs copped a mouthful after the stage as well according to a few clips doing the rounds.
Doesn’t help himself sometimes.
Personally as a fan of both I suspect that had Remco attacked after Seixas had been dropped dor good, Pogi would go after him playing “stopper” but ready to grab the stage. He might have attacked before but as this kind of stages had been a problem for him previously, I guess that he was worried by the tactical means available to Decathlon and UAE. He could count on Hindley but I guess he really didn’t trust the Aussie to lend a big hand for the cause.
As a UK fan, I was aghast at the loss of terrestrial TV coverage of the Tour on ITV, and equally dismayed by the BBC Sport website’s decision to provide no previews, just bare (AI-style) synopses of each stage, hours after the event.
SBS Australia (using VPN) has proved a superlative replacement for ITV, while your knowledgeable and entertaining blog offers a massive upgrade on BBC’s old coverage – a huge thank you, and long may you flourish!
Six stages live on s4c
Indeed so, and well done s4c. Sadly I don’t speak Welsh, and (understandably) there’s been no English subtitling. SBS has some plain-spoken insights from their various ex-Tour riders, and Bridie has contributed some neat French cultural observations.
Think I’ve said it before on here, armed with pro cycling stats and using the captions showing which group you’re watching and the time gaps between groups I now switch the sound off as I am sick and tired of overpaid talking heads either spouting bollocks or stating the obvious.
Had to smile at this comment as I find my local SBS commentary over the top and prefer Ant McCrossin and Roche on the world feed.
I generally like the SBS coverage, but would like to see them find a female commentator who can actually contribute more than Bridie O’Donnell who is even more one dimensional as a commentator than she was as a rider.
It’s a pity that Gracie Elvin is off the table under the conflict of interest policy as she was pretty good before she took her job with AusCycling. Grace Brown will be joining for the Tour Femmes, which SBS will hopefully treat as an audition for the Tour next year.
I’d prefer the world feed with ambient audio only if McCrossan was the only option. What’s the point of a lead commentator who can’t identify more than a handful of the riders in the race and doesn’t mark up his entry list to assist his substandard memory?
As a UK refugee I’ve quite enjoyed the SBS coverage – but I only have the former UK coverage as comparison. The only things that grate for me are their hilarious attempts at pronouncing French names.
Chapeau for the La Haine reference 😉
Jusqu’ici tout va bien, official motto of cycling ^___^
Totally agree with our host’s write up about the col de sarenne.
This was the first year for some years that I haven’t visited the TdF in person and that was the only bit that made me wish I was there.
It reminded me that the tour is the most fabulous advert for France when seen on the TV but almost the reverse when you are actually there in person.
Astonishingly, the fans vote for the super combativité award went to Mads Pedersen and not Baptiste Veistroffer.
The jury, however, went for Carapaz.
Astonishingly? Mads was lighting it up the entire race. Carapaz had a good last three days.
Astonishingly, because the majority of the voting fans are French and they have previous in that direction.
Apologies if the sarcasm didn’t come across.
Carapaz did attack on the Puy Mary before, only to get caught by Pogačar on the Col de Pertus too. Plus he was away in the Vosges too.
, re
It’s not really that astonishing.
The fans engaged enough to vote would have recognised that Pedersen wasn’t just dangling off the front filling in TV time on boring stages, he was animating the big stages with strategically aggressive attacks that other teams actually needed to respond to.
One thing the Tour could copy from the Giro is having a minor award for the most kilometres off the front, separate from the combativity awards .
Thank you Inrng for your continuing efforts. They truly enrich the tour experience for us armchair fans.
I was intrigued by the name the only non-European *official* winners question above. It took a few minutes.
For those that want a more challenging trivia question, name all the non-European podium placers.
I’ll play. Bernal, Carapaz, Uran, Quintana, Evans, Porte, Lemond. And three expunged cyclists from the USA, maybe Herrara in the 80s?
In the 80s it wasn’t Lucho Herrera but his fellow Fabio Parra, who was more solid against the clock, and descending, too.
The only one I can recall besides the ones you listed is Vinokourov for Asia.
Isaac Del Toro.
this is a good joke!
laughed during morning coffee
What’s the point of adding Montmartre to the final stage if they neutralise it every year? Del Toro should have lost the White Jersey.
The Tour is know only 20 stages with a post-tour criteriumin Paris.
Each to their own but I don’t really understand this take.
You either see the race we just saw, or you see those with something to lose forced to race conservatively and deprive us of an all time great finale? The choice seems obvious?
We will soon have a yellow jersey uninterested in this stage and if this is the circuit going forward then you’d expect it will become one for the sprinters in a matter of years – so encouraging aggressive racing now in the hope it will become the standard makes sense to me if I were the organisation.
Outside of all this, the Paris stage has been a procession for years as it is, so the difference seems purely in the paperwork? And if we were to lose a white or worse yellow jersey in this stage had the times not be stopped, then you’d be left with an awkward ceremony and an outcry from both fans and riders?
Every argument to me seems stacked in favour of the race doing exactly what they did today and last year? It seems sensible management – the bottom line to me is does anyone really care if the Tour is 20 or 21 stages if your treated to a finish like that?
Somehow, I think Pogacar would always race for it, whatever the GC position. The key issue will arise if he is behind by 45 secs going into the Paris stage. Would they neutralise it then or allow him to race for the yellow on the Montmatre?
The neutralisation helped facilitate the marvelous spectacle we just witnessed. Doubt if the white jersey would have changed hands anyway. Del Torro closed to about 40 seconds after he punctured and presume he sat up second time up Montmartre because he could and because he would have been spent if he made it back anyway. UAE had plenty of resource left in the front group and would not have pulled & gone back to help. As it was Seixas was dropped last time up so I doubt UAE would have had a problem controlling him if they’d have needed to.
I second oldDave’s comments below. The best final road stage I’ve seen in over 50 years of Tour watching. Kudos to the course planners – I guess they got the balance of the course spot on!
Now I can be something of a curmudgeon. But never at my most curmudgeonly would I ever be as curmudgeonly as this. You just saw the best bunch finish any of us have likely ever seen. Be grateful not miserable.
Some things are never enough for people. Although I didn’t find the GC particularly exciting, esp after Jonas’ retirement, a lot of this year’s stage finishes were very enjoyable. Those complaining about Sunday’s finale are dead inside. Try another sport if you want more excitement, but it’s unlikely you’ll find one.
Wow?!?!
What an unbelievable finale?
The two best riders in the world riding together and fending off the chasing peloton in the last meters of the Tour? Somedays I have to pinch myself with what we’re being treated to with this generation – there are days in the last few years I just never imagined possible over the years of watching Indurain, Armstrong and Froome….
A small nod to relationships between these top riders also, Pog&MVDP so often support each other to give us these finales, but also Philipsen sitting up, Pedersen also always contributing etc etc there are many races that will go down as all timers that wouldn’t be the case if these riders weren’t the people they are.
Oh. Yeah.
Those two last laps, those two last metres.
Err, one of them didn’t come close to fending off the peloton in the final sprint and got left behind…
The “one of them” rode hard until the last 600m which gave the other one the chance of holding off the peloton: he didn’t sit up 2km to the finish so they both gor caught.
The “one of them” wanted to win just as much but ran out of gas. So my point stands John – he wasn’t a lead out man.
Holy moly*, what a finish. Amazing stuff.
*I may have used some stronger language in the small Spanish cafe where I watched the end of the race, to the bemusement of the disinterested locals.
Did Philipsen “gift” MVDP the stage? 😁
this made me lol.
Nothing can take anything away from Mathieu’s effort there.
If anything, Tadej did. It doesn’t happen without him. But take nothing away from MVDP.
You made a funny. Pog got beaten fair and square.
@Andrew, I don’t think Bubble Wrap was trying to detract from MVDP’s win.
The ‘gift’ joke was just a joking reference to the debate around Remco a few days back – and the ‘wouldn’t happen with out him’ is just noting that were this two other riders there’s a scenario where Pog does not ride to his max knowing his sprint is likely weaker (and as he seemed to be tiring) and MVDP could also have dialled down his effort knowing he had Philipsen behind.
We’ve seen hundreds of races with that kind of disappointing outcome.
It’s a real testament to the two riders (and their apparent friendship/respect) that they both committed to give us the show they did, and it seems vaguely apparent that Pog likely knew the win was gone before the end but still gave MVDP the help he needed to stay away simply because he likes him.
There are other readings, but that’s how it appeared to me.
But as you say, in all readings Pog was beaten fair and square – although it’s probably worth noting he had just won the whole race and climbed with the best day in, day out so it perhaps wasn’t a totally even race! Either way, who cares? It was incredible and both men played their part. I feel genuinely lucky to be watch so many of this generation, Pog and MVDP probably above all.
These two are easily in my (totally pointless) list of my favourite ten riders of all time and their not even retired, they might already even be the top two?
I’d love to know any other commenters riders they enjoyed watched compete than MVDP or Pog, especially when their going hammer and tongs, I cannot think of any one/two who’ve got me off my seat this regularly.
I remember this year at Ronde, MVDP was asked why did he cooperated with Pogačar knowing that he will be dropped. And he replied something about there being other races where he will be on the one profiting from cooperating Pogačar.
+1 ZigaK that’s exactly what was going through my head even when MVDP said that back in Spring.
There are a lot of opinions flying round whenever any of these riders lose but it seems to me that ones as tactically shrewd and powerful as MVDP know exactly what they’re doing most of the time even if commentators cannot see it in the immediate aftermath.
Although being as strong as Pog and MVDP does make tactics a damn sight easier!
OldDAVE
Not only do I agree with you about watching those two race, we also share a turn of phrase, because hammer and tong was exactly the expression I was thinking of when watching.
At the risk of being overly hyperbolic I cannot think of a sight I’d rather see in cycling or indeed most other sports than those two racing flat out.
Yes, it is lovely to see noth Pogacar and MVDP give their all, knowing that they may well be beaten. And being happy to do so. They both know that sometimes it will be the other rider who benefits but it is a fair competition where both fight with everything they have.
I also admired that Seixas gave everything on stage 20, and was prepared to crack in trying to beat Del Toro. If he is the heir to Pogacar, this suggests the new generation will also give us great fights.
Great point John and thanks Lars!
Something that’s been playing on my mind today is that this will go down as a bad Tour… in our yearly mind-melt over whether the Tour is usually boring or interesting (I’m not bothered either way a love it no matter what) but by some metrics this will be considered a poor edition – and yet beyond most Tours being over well before the end, few have a finish like yesterday, also few have a first day like the TTT, as well as an all time great performance as we saw on AlpeDH.
There’s obviously more than this, and I do completely understand why this Tour will be downtrodden in years to come but I hope people will take the time to note that it also had some moments of true out of body excitement/disbelief.
I really hope cycling goes from strength to strength post-Pogacar but I can’t help feeling some should be careful what they wish for because he’s responsible (along with MVDP) for some of the best days this tired old eyes have ever seen in this sport and yesterday was just another to add to the past two MSRs, the first Flanders win etc.
@oldDave. Agreed. What gets me wound up is the Pog fanboys saying that anytime Pog loses, which is not often, he gifted the win. Stage 21 finish was amazing amd exciting but I would still like to have seen the times take. Perhaps they should finish with a TT – Le Mond vs Fignot springs to mind. That was also exciting and it counted.
OK, that’s that.
And onto the Vuelta (which is Pogi’s if he wishes)… did the organizers have a premonition re: the fiery decimation in the centre and northwest of Spain? That course avoids all those ‘hot spots’.
Looking forward to INRNG’s preview and insights. What a jewel this is – merci.
Speaking of the Vuelta: we have now had four consecutive non-competitive grand tours. Obviously if Pog does the Vuelta that would be five in a row. But if he doesn’t do that, is there a chance that we’ll get the first one since the 2025 Giro?
The Inner Ring, thanks for all your content at this Tour. Chapeau.
Now our host doesn’t need any more smoke blowing up his 4r5e but you did read it here first although I’m not sure even he could have predicted how good that was going to be
“A prestigious stage win awaits and potentially a duel between Tadej Pogačar and Mathieu van der Poel.”
As a postscript I assume Jasper Philipsen will be fined by the UCI for celebrating before the line.
Jasper still had one hand on the bars. The fine happens if neither hand is on the bars, and the rider is not controlling the bike.
I thought it was a ban on all following riders celebrating, period.
An easy defence for him would be to claim that he thought he had won, which would also point out the ridiculous nature of the rule.
It’s ban on interfering, if someone is celebrating while others are sprinting for a results or points then this can get in the way and prove dangerous, eg sitting up makes you slow down. Philipsen was ok last night.
Thanks for the clarification
Late in the day but wow that might have been the best bike race I’ve ever seen
Three weeks belting around France to win a bright yellow jersey and then…nowhere to wear it! or is there? can Tadej wear it in post Tour criteriums I’v never been sure.
Thanks for at great job, man!
Of all the blogs, the podds, the YouTube and other stuff/noice,
You are the best!
As a nordic citizen, i have to wonder what the danes and norwegians do that we in Sweden don’t in producing cycletalent?
Don’t ask 😛
Jokes apart, Norway invests a lot of money in juvenile sports across a variety of sports, Denmark specifically in cycling. You need to build a thick structure (more Norway’s case) and prompt a lot of young people to get interested in cycling as a beautiful sport they’d love to practise (more Denmark’s case with GT starts, races long broadcast free to air). Local/national sponsors at different levels help because they create sinergies to promote the sport to promote their business and foster national athletes to promote the sport & their business etc.
If it’s not State-driven, normally you have a random athlete who surfaces because he’s just so good, say Ole Ritter, then getting invested in mentoring new generations, in this case linking them to Tuscany cycling from the 80s on. Skibby, Rolf Sorensen, Skibby… and B. Petersen, not as famous but he launched Vingo. Snowball effect of sort. Sweden has had some good single athletes but the chain reaction never got so explosive.
Thanks for at great job, man!
Of all the blogs, the podds, the YouTube and other stuff/noice,
You are the best!
As a nordic citizen, i have to wonder what the danes and norwegians do that we in Sweden don’t in producing cycletalent?
I’m curious about this too. Is it that theirs is a less established cycling culture (forgive my ignorance about Swedish cycling)?
Here in the uk one could say the same until the uk cycling programme got its act together and began churning out the Cav’s, Wiggos, G’s et al. Where I live in Surrey you now can’t love for Mamils on a Sunday morning!
Although I didn’t manage to watch the entire race, I’ve really enjoyed this year’s tour.
It goes without saying that Tadej is a generational talent and I think he still hasn’t peaked yet. The goat? Impossible to compare given different competition and rider goals across the eras but, for me, top 3 ever.
He again rode masterfully and with respect for the rest of the field, his team and the fans. In my opinion, he will continue to race the tour for as long as he believes he can win – I think he will feel he has let himself (and everyone else) down if he doesn’t compete. Helping Isaac on Saturday was the ultimate thank you for his service: he had nothing left to prove on the road – perhaps the only outstanding goal would have been a tt win. For me, goat status would be achieved with Roubaix, Vuelta and world tt wins (I think he’s also capable of the hour record).
Hugeley disappointed for Jonas. The nature of his crash meant we were denied to opportunity to see him and Pog fight to the line. I hope he makes a full recovery and comes back next year. Hopefully as well Visma can bring a full-strength support squad. Wout was definitely missed as was Yates.
Great to see Remco continue his evolution. I worried with the lost weight that he might lose some tt firepower: let’s see what the world champs bring but I think he’s on for a three-peat.
Seixas had an incredible debut. For a 19 year old yet to mature shows there’s plenty more to come and I’m excited for his future.
Mads & Richie deserved their jerseys.
They still need to sort crowd control on the Alpe. I wonder if having stages on consecutive days was a good idea? Fans will have been in party mode from the moment of arrival. Perhaps restricting the amount of alcohol they can bring as they do as music festivals could be a solution to this?
The Montmartre final stage is a winner for me. What an exciting finale – chapeau to MVDP although I did worry for him when he collapsed. He truly left everything on the streets. I do kinda miss that the sprinters don’t get to compete for a last stage victory though. Perhaps to alternate in different years to miss the the final loop of Montmartre?
My final chapeau goes to Inrng. Thanks again and as ever for the best sports blog on the planet.
Vive le Tour!
Mostly agree with this although I fear there wouldn’t have been much of a showdown between Pog and Vinny.
And using the phrase “three-peat”, I can only assume you’re American. It’s never used in the UK. But if there are any Aussie, Kiwi, South African, Caribbean or other English language users, I wonder if they use the phrase.
“It’s never used in the UK”
Oh, dear. Should be banned, then…
I thought it was quite a clever phrase, never gave a thought to its origins, I suppose you have to be anglo to worry about such things.
It’s an awful phrase and is an Americanism. So no, I hope it never creeps into UK English.
In his previous post Tomski said “here in the uk” and for some reason spelled program “programme.” So either a) he’s pretending, or b) you’re wrong and you just missed out on the adoption of three-peat into the British lexicon.
I think Pogacar is definitely in the top-2 not top-4. People can legitimately make a case for Merckx (opinions on which is better will differ). But Pogacar is surely above either Coppi or Hinault. I am, of course, excluding anyone from before the war (such as Binda).
I’m really surprised to see you put Pogacar above Il Campionissimo ! I think the conditions are too different to make any comparisons, but sweeping statements like that are too easy to make. Even Eddy Merckx’s time was very different to today, and the comparisons meaningless. We should just accept that each was the greatest of their generation, as Pogacar is now, and admire what each achieved.
Yes, I think you are right about the difficulty of comparing across eras. And I know there are people who rate Coppi above Merckx, while others rate Hinault above Coppi. Personally, I think Bartali would be better rated if the war had not intervened.
Coppi is a little curious (for me). Sometimes extraordinary, but could be beaten when he should not have been. It is sometimes said that he would have crisis-of-confidence or emotional crisis. He had only one “Merckxian” year, which was 1949. His Giro-Tour double in 1952 was also outstanding, but he didn’t win a major classic that year.
I think this is something reasonable peple can have different views about, but for me, only Pogacar and Merckx have had multiple “Merckxian” years where they dominated all year. I do understand if you disagree. And as you say, it is extraordinarily difficult to compare across eras.
PS. In 1952 they introduced mountain-top finishes at the Tour (having three) and Coppi won them all. They didn’t have another one until 1958.
The final stage, with the 9 or 10km run from the top of Montmartre is probably perfect for a ‘will they, won’t they’ race between attackers and sprinters with the current generation of riders. However, it was probably down to the superhuman powers of MvdP and Pogacar that they could hold out that long and in normal circumstances might have been a fairly easyish chase for the sprinters teams. So, to keep up the chances of a finish as exciting as yesterday, they may have to go back to the shorter version in future!
I thought the same.
It also relied on Pogi racing in a pretty abnormal way. Any other rider would not have been working with MVDP in a situation where they had a near-zero chance of winning. It did make for an exciting finale, but not likely to happen in normal circumstances.
Pogi had to work with MvdP for either of them to have any chance of staying away from the bunch and a win being possible. So he had to work to give himself that probability of beating MvdP at the line, even if that meant increasing MvdP’s chance of winning.
That’s bike racing.
Your smug “that’s bike racing” is what’s so infuriating about this whole conversation. Sure, Pogi was trying to win MOST OF THE TIME. But he knew he wouldn’t win long before the end, and he rode to help his rival win the race. He admitted that. You may find that admirable, but it’s not normal racing for a rider to intentionally help someone on another team win and get nothing out of it himself.
Hello Craig. I would agree it is ‘not normal’ in the sense that the rules seem to be you work either for a team mate or where you have a chance to win. I can’t see a single set of circumstances where Pogacar is out sprinting MVDP.
However I actually delighted in the ‘not normal-ness’ of it. The point, as I see it, seems to be Pogacar would prefer to be part of something special (a two-man break staying away for 10km with only an 8 second lead) than necessarily decide, because he is almost certain not to win, to sit up and let ‘normal’ happen.
I suppose Pogacar has created a position where he is privileged enough to be able to do this because he has so many wins that his calculus is different to most. Juste pour la glorie.
Thank you Pete! I totally understand that you enjoyed that he did it, but you understood what was really going on. I’m just annoyed with people saying “he fought until the end,” because the only thing he was fighting for was MVDP’s win. An amazing performance for sure, but there were a lot of riders behind them who wished UAE had a sprinter in the race!
He didn’t KNOW he wouldn’t get anything out of it. There was still a slim chance of Pogi winning even if it was only 5% because of MVDP dropping/breaking a chain on the final sprint or suffering a late puncture or even cramping. So yes it is normal for him to ride to the end in the same way he lost Roubaix to WVA. The fact that he said stuff after is 1. gracious loser and 2. a bit of a flex that “i win so much I can afford to be generous” and “I’m such a nice guy to even my closest competitors”
Craig:
Pogacar and Van der Poel seem to have an informal understanding that both will always ride full, even when the other has the advantage. Sometimes it benefits one, sometimes the other. Pogacar obviously prefers to ride for a small chance than no chance at all. And he enjoys this sheer-hell-of-it riding style where it is fun, rather than the sitting-on-caution that characterised riding 10 or 20 years-a-go.
PS. This was very common 40+-years-ago. Kelly has spoken about how he kept a notebook of people to whom he “owed-a-favour”. These are people on other teams who had sacrificed late in a race to help him, and he made sure he helped them on occasion when he thought he couldn’t win. He wasn’t the only one doing this: “favours” were common and an accepted part of the sport. [Merckx was considered very odd since he always raced to win.]
Swedish cyclists:
Petterson brothers from 60’s/70’s. Great amateurs and professional riders.
Bernt Johannson 76 Olympic re champ.
Sven Ake Neilson good amateur and professional in the 70’s.
Slim pickings fo a good time now