A big day in the Pyrenees and a big day in France as it’s le 14 Juillet, France’s national day.
Adet at a time: it looked like plan, UAE rode tempo all day with Nils Politt almost doing an hour on the front to keep the breakaway in range, Tim Wellens toiled too. On the final climb Ben Healy dropped David Gaudu to go solo and the last survivor from the breakaway but behind UAE accelerated. Adam Yates attacked and this had Visma chasing and then Tadej Pogačar himself attacked with 4.5km to go.
This was a trenchant attack, nobody tried to follow. Jonas Vingegaard seemed to compose himself and then set off in chase, distancing Evenepoel. Yates worked briefly as a relay. It all looked like textbook stuff but was apparently invented in the moment.
For a moment it looked as if the gap had stabilised and Vingegaard was going to float across. Then Pogačar began to pull away. At the finish Pogačar had 39 seconds on Vingegaard, add the time bonus for the win and he’s now almost two minutes up overall. This gap is wide now, Vingegaard can’t hope for a perfect time trial to turn the tables. Now has to find a way to take time in the mountains just to close the gap. Starting today? Not easy.
The Route: 198km and 4,800m of vertical gain. It starts straight up the Peyresourde and on the steeper side, plenty of riders can be dropped here. One the characteristics of today’s is the long valley roads in between climbs and the first flat section concludes with the intermediate sprint.
The Col de Menté goes up the side famous for Luis Ocaña crashing. It’s steep with long ramps at first and then a series of hairpins at the top. The descent is regular and on a wide road.
The Portet d’Aspet is steeper still, over 9% average but with long moments at 12%. The descent is more regular and as it eases there’s over 50km to the next climb.
The Col d’Agnes opens with two kilometres at 10% and then eases. There’s no big descent at the top, the passage across to the uncategorised Port de Lers, 3.5km at 6.5% and then downhill to the valley and 20km of valley roads.
The Finish: there’s a flat approach on the valley, the race turns onto a side road and, just like Alpe d’Huez, the road rears up right from the start. Unlike the other climbs of the day with their narrow roads and varying gradient the road to the Plateau de Beille is a much more regular climb with a wide road. It’s still hard though, relentlessly at times as it climbs through woodland and only eases just before the line by which time the race is above the tree line.
The Contenders: once the race is well-established you can start to see the same names in the breakaway but it’s not easy to pick Ben Healy (EF) again as he must be rinsed, he can try but might prefer to wait. DSM missed the move and Romain Bardet is the obvious contender, especially as he likes longer raids.
Plenty of talented names are now well down on GC. Jai Hindley (Red Bull), Enric Mas (Movistar), Simon Yates (Jayco), Richard Carapaz (EF) come to mind, grand tour contenders but looking for a result here.
Pavel Sivakov is the local but bound to be on team duties for UAE although could this include going up the road. Indeed he could help set up a 14th stage win for Tadej Pogačar but Adam Yates has a chance as he can ride away, get a bonus win and haunt Visma who seem to be chasing him like he’s close on GC to their leader. It’s hard to see Jonas Vingegaard (Visma-LAB) getting the advantage but it’s possible if he has a better day and the heat and distance made his rival fade.
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Pogačar, Carapaz, Vingegaard |
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Bardet, S Yates, A Yates, Buitrago, Healy, Hindley, Mas, Buitrago |
Weather: heating up, 30°C in the valleys.
TV: KM0 is at 12.05pm CEST and the finish is forecast for 5.40pm CEST. Tune in for the start to see how many riders are ejected on the Peyresourde and to see how long it takes for the breakaway to form.
Postcard from Saint-Girons
The Tour heads east into the Ariège. How many mountain passes are there on today’s stage? A glance at the profile shows the Col de Peyresourde, the Col de Menté, the Col de Portet d’Aspet, the Col d’Agnes and the Port de Lers, the latter has no mountains points but port is a local dialect for a mountain pass. So five right?
We wouldn’t be exploring the topic if it was so simple. There are ten passes today: the Peyresourde, Menté, Clin, Couret, Portet d’Aspet, Latrape, Agnes, Lers, Pas de Portet and the Pas de Rolland. However this isn’t because the Tour de France is hiding secret mountain passes to confound the riders. Instead it’s just that while going up or down the flank of a mountain it’s not uncommon for the road to go via other passes along the way.
However it is notable how the Tour de France imposes its psychogeography. The race’s cartography is selective. The profile above accurately displays the elevation of the route but excludes the terrain around it, we see the Plateau de Beille as the peak of the today’s stage when it’s dwarfed by the surrounding mountains of course.
Stage profiles are quick to list almost every village going, like Argein and its 192 people, or Niaux which is home to 153 but other features miss out, whether mountain passes or more. It seems to be written with mayors and other local politicians in mind; no wonder as they are among the clients of the Tour.
There are no road names. The feed zones are not mentioned to discourage souvenir-seeking crowds from getting in the way. The Port de Lers is mapped but downgraded because it has no mountains points on offer despite being 3.5km at 6.5%, not big for the day but there are other climbs in the race that are shorter and not as steep which get third category status.
It doesn’t happen today but during the race the mountains point might be placed at a different point to the actual mountain pass and it’s common for the race to have a marked climb named with the formula of {Côte de [nearest village name]} when often the place in question has its own name; Tuesday has the Côte de Fambetou but this is actually the Col de Fambetou to locals and on everyone else’s maps. In short ASO redraws the map France in subtle ways, the race route is not always the same as territory.
I’m not sure if the ‘help’ Pog got from Yates’ impressive acceleration was physical or psychological. I got distracted and missed how long he used Adam. Have we ever seen Vingo crack – he always seems to measure his effort and creep back slowly or limit his losses. Rather like Remco only better!
I’m not writing Vingo off just yet – he might possibly be going but not gone yet.
I don’t think he’ll really crack. But I’m more and more thinking that his form is just the 2% or so below his top. Maybe his VO2max is that tiny bit lower due to the lung injury?
Him not going all out until he cracks is possibly just a trait of his character, quiet and measured.
lung capacity is hardly ever the bottleneck for VO2max …
Vingegaard has lung capacity to spare. See him in person and this thorax is quite something.
Yesterday’s finish arguably suited Pogačar more with the 3-4% sections. Today’s finish is more even and steeper, but relative and based off yesterday Vingegaard will want to hold on.
He came to Yates, took a breather and because Vingegaard was close to catching them took off again after maybe 30 seconds.
Yes. That’s true but it also looked like Yates hadn’t got much more to give.
Maybe that was the moment the Tour victory was sealed (not exactly won as Pog had built a decent lead already).
I had hoped for more from Vinny after the catch and win the other day but maybe he really is missing that bit of form/fitness.
Likewise, I had thought there’d be less from Pog but perhaps his problems the other day were fuelling related or some other temporary thing.
Anyway, I can’t see how Vinny is going to take back 2 minutes, especially as UAE have a stronger team than Visma.
It’s far from over. Today, or on those three alpine days next week, Pogacar can show some weakness again, especially if it’s going to be warmer (Turini stage) and / or the illness strikes. The lead is perhaps considerable, but hardly decisive per se.
The heat may indeed be a tactical weapon for Visma but I can’t see how what looks like an under strength Visma team and a Vinny just short of his best form is going to take back the time needed. Yes, the thrid week may hurt Pog more after his Giro exploits but he has the strong team to defend his cushion (barring incidents and illness) that he has perhaps lacked in recent times.
He used Yates for 80 seconds due to what they say on Norwegian Television.
p.s. I’d read in my head that yesterday’s summit finish was Pog’s ‘a debt’ to be repaid, whereas I know realise from your report that it’s actually ‘a day’ at a time.
Merci and chapeau
At the moment barring the sickness going around the peloton not much can stop Pogacar apart from him over extending himself. With such a big lead, UAE can go on the defensive but as Pogacar wants to race every time he pins on a number, that might well blow back on his team and/or himself.
As it stands the podium seems to have sorted itself out, unless disaster strikes or people throw more then crisps.
It does seem as though the Energizer Bunny is back but 7 stages remain.
Am I the only one who thinks that VLAB’s jersey looks more like camouflage than an advertising space?
No. It’s an ok design up close. A nice jersey for a Sunday ride. But it looks terrible at a distance and it’s impossible to pick out VLAB riders in the peloton.
EF win hands down for visibility and design. Love the paint job on the Cannondales too.
As well as the Col de Menté being famous for Ocaña’s crash, the climb of the Portet d’Aspet is where (descending the side that is climbed today) Fabio Casartelli was killed in a crash in 1995.
On a happier note – Niaux may only have 153 inhabitants, but it is the site of the Grottes de Niaux, a series of caves containing some of Europe’s earliest and most significant pre-historic cave art.
Many thanks, again! These are my consolations nowadays since absolutely impossible ethically use previous twitter. Still miss horribly the raceday commentary and analysis, and desperately hope to see you (and ammattipyoraily) on Threads.
Being around 8kg heavier and around the same height as Vingegaard, Pog has historically struggled at extreme mountain stages where weight has more impact. Having said he changed his training to remedy this problem, it will be fascinating to see how he gets on today.
It will also be interesting to see if Visma take the front of the peloton and try to crack Pogi.
Visma just don’t hve the strenght of UAE unfortunately. However, the heat could help them today – but I don’t think Vinny is quite at the level (weight advantage or not) to exploit it anywhere near enough to crack Pog, which in reality he needs to do to take yellow and keep it.
Am I alone in thinking the bloke with the bag of crisps should be tracked down and hanged by his genitals?
Not alone.
The severity of the punishment should be flavour-dependent.
Much too kind!
What drives these fools to drive all the way up a mountain to assault athletes?
Apparently he’d been enjoying a drink or three and has been caught by police and after spending the night in the drunk tank he will be charged today.
But some people do these these for internet fame, it’s something to condemn but also not to give too much prominence at the same time.
OK, there was prize money to be won, but on the Tourmalet, Lazkano sat on the back of the breakaway for 18 km and then sprinted the last 250 m to grab it. That’s almost as shameless as the customer service department of the telephone company that is his team’s main sponsor!
Happy to see such a good race.
Having looked forward to P/V for an entire year and thought we’d lost it first with P doing Giro and second with V crashing, it feels even more special to see both giving us another bout in their rivalry for the ages.
As it stands *should* P win we wont be any closer to truly knowing who’s the greater GC rider but who really cares when they put on this much of a show. Incredible stuff. Happy to say they’re easily match till we get a full fitness/no caveats match up.
Can assign Wednesday to a bonk for P and poor tactics but as reckless as that was, I was as disappointed in his and Remco’s silly interview quotes of ‘big balls’ and V ‘being scared’ from the rest day… yesterday P seemed back to the fun loving nice guy we all know by correcting a journalist who quoted Visma DS who’d said ‘the battle is lost but the war isn’t over’ by replying ‘it’s not war it’s just a game we play’.
It would be interesting to know what’s was going through P’s head in the last week and how he felt as he hasn’t seemed himself on and off the bike – I assume nervous excitement mixed with some doubt and over confidence but glad he put his mind to rest.
V was outstanding on Wednesday and even yesterday never gave up, what a rider – I think the differences in their personalities are more to do with why you’re more likely to see P blow up than V rather than the differences in their capabilities – V is just smarter with his energy use and wouldn’t let himself go there. P is basically a wildman who’s creates all this era’s stardust by being permanently on the attack until the lights go out.
One thing we are seeing for the first time here is V riding with an underpowered team as P did in 2022. It does make it look like a tall order for Visma now to isolate P and set V up but who knows. I subscribe to the P being his own worst enemy school which may see him tap out but V is outrageously brilliant himself so may come good on later stages.
Very thankful for the rivalry between these two, we had a great Tour in 2011 but this is the first true TDF back and forth between two riders since Contador/Schleck and incomparably better. I suspect we’d all need to scroll back to the 80s at least to find anything this spectacular.
Well, *should* P win (which I’m far from certain of, given heat is coming and the third week has proven the hardest for whomever tried the double in the last 25 years), we could say clearly enough that *currently* he’s the best GT rider and by a full bike length.
But GTs *are* the third week, so it makes little sense to make such judgement now.
Very valid points from the both of you.
I look forward to the rest in utter suspense – are you not entertained?
As a movie or a novel, much will depend on its ending (fingers crossed, but an illness or a crash would spoil it), but it’s been absolutely great. To keep a race entertaining as a whole despite 50% of the stages having been bunch sprints says a lot. I’ve been needing some of those stages to relax a bit, even! Nail biting, and when they were four (although two of them a step below) it was close to perfection.
We had been having some great Giros and Vueltas in the last decade, but the TDF general classification had lacked any form of serious battle for 6 editions at least, let alone a proper rivalry.
We had had an even more radical back and forth between two athletes in 2015, of course, and in a better race as a whole, but the sensation that other factors were partly affecting the result (Movistar’s priority being Valverde, Sky’s political power and malpractices) took something away from it. Besides, you already knew where and when each athlete was going to struggle and, unlike this year for now, we had few relative surprises in that sense (Quintana failing in the crosswinds which were one of his syrong points, the überperformance in LPSM as in much better in quantitative terms than logic expectations).
We are going to be entertained in Le Tour with these two for the rest of the decade, to see who (first) gets to five wins. JV at 100% next year, and Pog with the weight of being a double GT hero, will be game on.
or triple?…..
Tom Danielson on Twitter said that on a second GT, you feel better after a week and a half. Don’t know if it’s true, but won’t JV struggle in the third week due to lack of training ? Anyway let’s enjoy what we have now… Last year the fight was perfect until this ITT.
Both valid points,the latter being what eventually caught up with Pogi last year. But these guys can surprise, no doubt. Another interesting issue is that in the «old» cycling both Pogi and Vingo should suffer today from yesterday’s efforts…
Completely subscribe all of the above. Just adding that there is still plenty of road to go through. We all remember that last year Pogi lost what… 7min in 1 hot and hard mountain stage? Yes, yes, particular context has changes, but it just shows what the nature of this level of cycling means: a half bad day and the world is upside down. It’s brutal.
Today is the stage that Ving probably marked on his calendar months ago and said: “that’s where I’ll win the tour”. The long, steep, hot climbs give him the edge that can even mean minutes. It remains to be seen if the effort to close yesterday left some marks or if on the contrary Pogi’s attack yesterday left him drained. Pogi has the advantage of truly only needing to limit losses and has the team to do just that. But… it’s an open race still and an exciting one.
UAE making it 5 on 3 for much of the final was what gave them the opportunity later to isolate Jonas as Jogenson was forced into chasing Yates, well played.
I don’t think that really mattered. What’s Matteo really going to do when Pogs attacks. Nothing likely. Just like Yates didn’t really help Pogs either. Maybe Kuss could have helped a bit in that situation but even he isn’t going to pull back Pogs there. It was man on man yesterday.
I think that Yates helped. Try go full gas and you’ll notice the difference if you can drop a tiny little bit the watts be it only for 30 to 90 seconds without losing the corresponding speed,before you go deep again.
I thought Poggi should ride defensively today, so I’ll have to eat my hat. But I won’t be alone.
As a fellow Los Angeles resident, chapeau to Sean Quinn for his ride. But his USA championship kit is horrendous, esp. with the pink helmet and gloves of EF. He ought to steal Lapeira’s jersey and he’ll have the right colors and a classic design.
Carapaz was only 2:28 down on Pog yesterday, probably equally tired as Healy. Bardet took it significantly easier 17mins down probably chatting with Wawa
I was waiting for these two days to see if VLB would launch a counter-attack but yesterday didn’t look like they have the strength. Still would not call it decided given today and the super hard last days.
Very little chat on here about Quickstep and their first proper attempt at Le Tour.
I’m puzzled to see what Remo’s team are doing to help him, other than Landa riding Remo’s spare bike, if needed.
Well they’re here… If you would have told me, in January, that Remco would have had more teammates than Vingegaard at the end of a mountain stage of the TdF, I would have laughed at you.
I think that Evenopoel has been impressive up to this point but if he keeps on loosing 30 second chunks of time each day in the mountains that will take the shine off things.
I was quite enjoying watching him sit on Vingegaard in the final but alas it didn’t last.
Remco has been great and should be very happy with himself as should the team who’ve performed well. I think when criticising a team riding for a rider between 3rd-10th you need to remember it’s not their responsibility to attack and if they did the might put their own rider at risk, especially because those teams are less likely to have elite domestiques so would need to make such an attack in a more imaginative way than lining out a final climb. Basically sometimes they might be doing a lot but look like they’re doing very little.
As for Remco in the long term – as till now he’s done well but is yet to show his historic weaknesses of multiple mountain stage deep into a third week against the best competition have been overcome and I don’t think we can fully judge his ride till Nice.
*Should* he podium it feels there’s also a second issue in his rise to the top that he’s still clearly a level below P/V when climbing, maybe that gap’s closeable but it may well not be and certainly doesn’t feel like it will change in the near future meaning he might also be unlucky that once he reaches the zenith a new younger talent could have emerged!
I personally don’t see Remco despite all his talent winning a tour or multiple tours without luck/crashes/illness/favourable route and think he’s more likely to end his career with a mountain of one day trophies plus maybe a few Vueltas and Giros.
Usually would end saying I’m happy to be proved wrong but Remco’s new humble persona was punctured with his big balls comment toward V for me, reminding me how boorish and arrogant I’ve found him in the past, so truthfully I’d prefer to continue seeing the P/V slug fest in years to come than Remco taking the top step.
Very funny (not you Dave, I agree with your take, but funny how things turned out to be) that nowadays the strongest ITT man has more of a shot at Giro and Vuelta than at the TDF…
Probably because there’s little surprise, he doesn’t have much support but they’re trying their best. Losing Vervaeke yesterday is significant, useful in the mountains and close to Evenepoel as well.
The riders trying to win from breaks must be in absolute despair this Tour. Day after day they’re getting no chance to fight for a stage win. It looks like yet another day today when they’re not going to have a hope of winning, with the break only having a minute and a half with 135km to go.
This will be remembered as the Tour that cemented Pogi as one of the greatest of all time, and it will be great if Bini wins green. Other than that, a very forgettable event. This has been one of the dullest years in my recollection. The best are barely even challenged in most races and even the most exciting breakaway specialists are getting crushed. Hope this doesn’t go on too long.
Multiple “superteams” are probably the reason why breakaway don’t get the time gap they need to survive the last climb. UAE or Visma can’t afford the reactive Sky strategy of boring everyone to death by thousands of pedal strokes – and they can afford stellar lineups able to crush every attempt again and again. Also, they have GC contenders strong enough to win repeatedly. Froome perhaps wasn’t.
Anyway, those two Pyrenean stages were anything but dull.
Serious question, not being snarky: what did you find exciting? I thought the only question was whether Pogi would blow up, and if he didn’t, race over. Is that an oversimplification?
The tactical considerations – and of course the performance of both Pogacar and Vingegaard. How often do you see a GC favourite to attact 10+ kms from the finish line? (Ok, a matter of a weaker team.)
I struggle to remember more interesting GT racing, really. At least since Froome’s Finestre mischefs. Last year there were great stages (Tourmalet, Puy de Dome…), the year before Granon, 2020 final TT, the Stelvio stage of TGH’s Giro… this Pyrenean dyad feels up to those moments to me.
Mind… I supposed Vingegaard would win the race again, so I consider both Pogacar wins a surprise.
It’s a little hard to understand this comment overall @The Other Craig as I’d expect the vast majority of cycling fans would disagree with you and that up until yesterday have the current tour up there with the very best.
I hope I’m not falling for trolling because your comment does seem sincere, or maybe it was just the heat of the moment, but I guess my first questions would be how old are you and what kind of races you enjoy?
The age isn’t to be patronising but if you got back a fair way like me you’ll remember years of Indurain monotony, followed soon after by Armstrong and then quite a few Sky triumphs went a similar way. The years in between threw up some surprises and great races but nothing quite like the rivalry we’re currently privileged to see. Personally I have no issue with the TDF’s regular boringness overall as I’m diehard fan so always enjoy… but it’s hard not to wonder whether you’ve joined the club since maybe 2018 or so and grown used to the fireworks and an old timer like me should envy your impression this is a poor edition?
As for type of racing – I’m a stage racing fan so always prefer the grand tours to classics and I’m wondering whether your taste might be the reverse, or whether you’re a bigger fan of breakaways maybe? Only because we’ve seen things in this current Tour that are so remarkably unusual and exciting when you take the long view it’s extremely hard to understand how you’d see this as a poor Tour?
You asked for reasons why I/we’ve enjoyed:
a) Stage 11 – The 30km Podium breakaway on Wednesday might have been poor tactics from Pog but it is also nearly unheard of to see the entire podium forced into action on a middle mountain stage. It will be legendary moment in this rivalry and likely in the argument for one of the great stages of the decade.
b) Stage 9 – The gravel stage, relentless action and excitement with both breakaway and GC battles everywhere. There are entire TDF editions that don’t have a single stage with this level of entertainment let alone two.
c) Stage 4 – The Galibier descent was again an action packed last half hour that adds variety of a descending race to this years perks as well as a GC battle early in the race, and even if it was a long drag to get there… when it sparked, it was outstanding.
d) Stage 2 – Brilliant breakaway battle and again more GC action in the first week along with beautiful scenery. It’s difficult to name many recent tours with this kind of proper sustained GC action in the opening days. Stage 1 also featured a frantic battle to catch the winner and early positives for French riders which is great for any TDF.
e) Stages 14 & 15 – it might be that similar to last year that the Tour is over as a contest before the final week but if so, these stages are both likely career defining wins for Pog and that Vin threw the kitchen sink at him to try and turn the tables on 15 makes the narrative between the two pretty magical. I can’t really imagine many cycling fans not watch enraptured by both till Pog finally lifted off to *possibly* put the race beyond doubt on Sunday. Aside from that the second day might currently be the fastest any human has ever climbed if some stat buffs are to be believed which is just another feather in this year’s cap and the never ending question of who is better (although I will not labour this and I do not want to open another tiresome doping discussion)
f) And despite sprint stages generally lacking without breakaways (I hope this encourages a rethink of sprint/transition stages in future) we currently have the first Black African winning three stages and likely taking home a jersey along with Cavendish claiming the outright record for wins in a final 200m that was up there with the best wheel surfing performances of his career.
g) I’m also a Time Trial fan but was thrilled to notice many cycling friends also enjoying the battle that day so feel emboldened enough to also list here as it was also a good day.
I’m a fan of the TDF no matter what, I love great and poor editions, I love stories of lower placed riders having their day in the sun, heroic crash survivors battling to the finish, teams battling and annoying one another, even Magnus Cort’s hotel room reviews – but above all I love a battle for Yellow, and having had a decade where both the Giro and Vuelta have given far better races than the Tour, to now have a battle for Yellow that has raged over FOUR Tours is almost beyond my wildest dreams and I don’t think I’m alone?
Yes we may still be waiting for a P/V battle that goes the distance, but till then I’d argue that last year until the Time Trial and this year until yesterday are only bettered by 2011 possibly going all the way back to the 1990s. This is a golden age and maybe you posted in the heat of the moment, or maybe stage racing isn’t for you but it’s pretty mind bending for an old barn owl like me to hear anyone say this hasn’t been a good tour. If I’m alone in this so be it, maybe I’ve crossed over to opposite land but Vive Le Tour!
*(final note – I do think there is a separate argument that cycling and the Tour can be even better and serve up more entertainment, which if this is your argument I’d agree on but in this current and extremely unlikely to change version we’re seeing things that are truly special for any road racing era)
Good points by Fra and oldDave I think
You made a funny – boring race and one of GOAT.
Do you actually believe Pogacar?
Pogacar is absolutely amazing and I desperately want him to be legit. I do believe that if he is doing something shady, a lot of the peloton are doing the same thing. I certainly don’t like that fifth place beat the old record for the final climb, but it is the nature of sport for athletes to get progressively better.
I agree that athletes get progressively better over time. Training methods improve, nutrition improves, phsysio improves. It’s not hard to accept Pogocar smashing a few records, too — clearly he *is* a multi-generational talent. But, what gives me pause is that he is smashing these records *after* winning the Giro (in similar commanding fashion). I really wanted Pogocar to win both GTs, but I was expecting that during the TdF he might seem a bit more mortal with so much racing in his legs.
I’ve got a number of issues with current performances, but it must be said that Pogacar’s superiority at the Giro allowed him to treat it as a training block, consistently with what had been declared beforehand by his coach. The key is how hard you’re being challenged at the Giro. Think Froome and Dumoulin 2018, Contador 2015 vs. Indurain 1992…
LOL, not a chance, and add the other two on the podium to that list.
Could he reproduce these performances at a different team and with different coaching staff? Probably but who knows.
Several things which Pogačar does are not doping dependant, plus he was up to big feats even during seasons when the rest of the team didn’t look like they were actually overperforming. That said, the context is what it is. Would he be a great rider under different conditions? I’d dare to say ‘yes’. Would he push these same watts? Ahem. However, in cycling you need a certain amount of watts to be competitive, but watts only don’t make a great cyclist.
Neither Sivakov or Yates is significantly better than they were with Ineos. One therefore has to give the team the benefit of the doubt. The difference, in my opinion, is the big money that Sky bought into cycling, it now attracts athletes of much greater physiological capacity who, previously, would not have made a career of the sport.
I quite much agree with you.
Adam raised a bit his game, anyway, IMHO.
However, there’s still a significant difference between Jumbo upping to impressive levels the likes of Laporte, Van Hooydonck, Tratnik, or even Kuss – in more than a sense – when compared to Adam Yates, who could collect 4 TDF top ten, 1 at the Giro, 1 at the Vuelta (half of them being top 5), in three very different teams and throughout a long span of time. Same for Almeida, who is the image of consistency, not only for the way he rides but also because his *worst* GC in 5 GTs he finished is a 9th place and has more top 5 than anything else (not to speak of his *dozen* of podia in shorter stage races). Ayuso anyone?
I wouldn’t really say that Soler or Wellens look like they are overperforming. Politt himself is head and shoulder above the “passistoni” deployed for similar functions by other teams. Van Baarle, who was indeed comparable, was turned into a way stronger climber than Nils.
The curious thing is that the only two support riders at Jumbo whose quality could be comparable to UAE’s gregari, i.e. Kelderman and Kruijswijk, age question apart (not a detail), never looked as decisive as the ones I named above.
The only rider who had me raise my eyebrows in the support roles at UAE was perhaps Bjerg going uphill, but it’s really hard to evaluate because he’s still so young, clearly has a great engine, and at the end of the day his general performances through the year stayed consistent, he just pulled a couple of great days in the mountains rather than becoming a rider better than he himself ever was for 2-3 seasons.
All that said, my impression *for now* is that VismaLAB is in a sudden negative streak, which really greatens the current Vingo’s performance, actually! OTOH, UAE, despite not being able to materialise the sort of huge improvements we could see by Jumbo, is within a positive trend of sort.
Final point. Physiologically better athletes are coming into cycling in some countries, but clearly not in others. As the former have a smaller cycling movement, the impact on peloton quality is reduced. Look how many pro riders are still French or Italian. Germany never had a huge lot, but they’re less than in the past, I’d say, despite team support. OTOH, these are also big countries where when you pick the very best, it’s the very best out of tens of millions, not out of 2-10 millions. But in Italy good stamina and cardio physiological values now go elsewhere… where you don’t die in a traffic accident, among other things (mainly tennis, track & field, swimming, skiing even). This takes away from the peloton’s general quality, I think. I’d be curious to know about Belgium and France, where big talents still flow into cycling – but is the balance steady?
This sport has really become a joke. Pantani’s record smashed by more than 3 minutes, Armstrong time by 6. How much obvious can it get? What kind of excuses will be used?
Here we go again.
Why? The truth is – cycling history is the history of doping. Merckx was a doper, proven doper even. Was Coppi clean? Etc. Nowadays the control system is more robust than ever (that’s not saying it’s bombproof or gooed enough or anything in similar vein), so contemporary results are in a way more profound than ever, aren’t they?
I heard it all before. Never tested positive, the controls work etc. The truth is nobody has any interest of exposing the dopers. The sport is a business and a high profile case can bring the whole sport down. In 2020 something happened, since then the climbing times, speeds just went through the roof. The decade before whereas there were still some suspicious performances, but it was more or less within the realms of reality. Now it is just one record after another being broken, a not by seconds but by minutes. This year we had the fastest Flanders, Roubaix and Giro, now the Tour eclipses everything we have seen before. And please don’t use the better training, bikes and nutrition excuse. Do you really want me to believe that 10 years ago they were racing on 15 kg bikes and not having any idea about how to train and how to fuel? The fact that guys like Giannetti and Matxin are still involved makes me sick.
I believe that the only way to dope and win long term both in the Armstrong era and especially now is to have the approval of the UCI and Wada. And that is very hard to pull of because of the sheer number of people that need to know the secret – because of the bio passport and tests. I’m not putting my hand in the fire for noone, but i belive that it is much harder to dope and get away with it than before. And all that for smaller and smaller effects – because you have to micro dose not to be detected.
I’m a Pogi fan but the control system being more robust than ever is as false as it gets. The control “methods” might theoretically be better than ever, but the *system* as such is obviously lacking big time, and not by pure chance. Not that only one rider or team is “benefitting” from that, either…
True. Same thing about the controls regarding motor doping. The podcast Ghost in the machine is a deeply disturbing listen.
There is at least A control system now. It’s more robust by default. 🙂 If you want to discuss the system holistically, as a whole, on a, say, political economy level of the sport – than I am perhaps not that naive either. (Still, a control system was introduced in part as a reaction to untenable situation of the epo era, which endangered the sport itself.)
I can’t explain Pogacar being 5 minutes faster than Pantani (with the caveat that Pantani was probably no generational talent or cycling great – but that’s red herring, because it’s not about Pantani himself, rather about the general level of unprecedented peloton performances; and Pantani did set a lot of rather durable records of course; surely fueled by more than talent, hard work and perseverence). I believe a lot of the difference is attributable to general development of practical results of sport-related science, professionalism etc. (Cycling is not the sole endurance sport which saw great development during last decades – e.g. association football is clearly similar while few people cry foul play, there are no new Zemans…)
But, for me the key point is: if I muse about hypothetical or almost certain or whatever doping, I can hardly enjoy the sporting drama unfolding in the real-ish time. And vice-versa, if I enjoy the drama, there is no point in doping speculation, because I can not be anything but ignorant anyway, until a doper is caught. Modern sport is a simulacrum of sorts, hyper-realistic in it’s attempts at immediate insight while unable (and unviling) to overcome the distance between entertainment facade and profound experince. In a way, it’s irrelevant whether a rider dopes or not, until the force of hindsight falls on our past enthusiasms as a pseudo-cathartic continuation of entertainment industry narrative building. Perhaps the construction is fragile.
Perhaps it’s about getting rid of a cheater / not cheater dualism (not that it’s your perspective) and being aware of what depends mainly on doping and what doesn’t anyway, as well as the fact that there are infinite grades of doping impact on performances on the one hand, and OTOH on results, mainly as a consequence of organisation, influence etc.
Frankly, doping “revelations” always brought me little surprise compared to what I already expected during the last 3 decades.
And my personal take about doping controls is that they were not as well-intentioned as you suppose. Just look at what came right after those “terrible 90s”, and how the control system was actually used… hint: *not* to make the system more balanced or sustainable or the athletes healthier.
Also don’t overlook the incredible array of UCI-legal PEDs.
15y old kids ride 5km/h faster than they did 20 years ago. Which program are they on, Mr. Expert?
Please show me the evidence and records for it. And dont tell me that Bruyneel said so because he is as believable as the Saunier Duval duo in charge of UAE.
Dunno where these figures come from, I guess some very anecdotal race (or plain invention), but I’d say it’s pure BS as the speeds of MJ races both in mass start and ITTs are extremely similar now and 20 yrs ago (in both cases with strong course-related variations from year to year, yet any rolling average over 3 to 5 yrs returns comparable results and surely not even close to those laughable numbers). But maybe there are fast bikes for the 15 yo size not anymore for 17-18 yo…
Not really – a record from over 25 years ago. Why shouldn’t it be beaten?
The sport is actually professional nowadays, as opposed to still largely amateur due to the traditional dogma we saw back then.
Better training, nutrition, recovery – and then there is the equipment; bikes, aero, wheels/ tyres, etc are all massively better.
Cycling fans really lack knowledge a lot of the time – do you really expect records to stand still? Most other sports have all improved.
I don’t have a problem with records being broken. I do have a problem with records being annihilated in such fashion. Beating a record by 4 minutes on a 40 min climb is an increase of 10% among riders in the absolute elite at the top of the sport. A record held by a rider who we know was doped. All other riders at the top of the standings on this climb were doped as well. How much does the improvement in equipment, nutrition and training make on such a climb? The Pogi believers want to make it look like the riders from the past had no idea whatsoever about training and were riding on heavy bikes. I remind everybody that the UCI weight limit was introduced 25 years ago hence the difference in weight if any is minimal at best. I also would like to remind everybody that the likes of Ferrari and Cecchini were top level coaches (putting the doping part aside). The knowledge about training and human physiology did not evolve by leaps and bounds since. Furthermore do you want to tell me that the difference in aerodynamics is such that records from 5 years ago are being absolutely smashed? I am sorry, but I find it all hard to believe. I do consider the time of 45 minutes on Plateau de Beille to be within the realms of human capabilities, because that is what Pinot rode (whom I consider as a genuine clean cyclist). Riding 5 minutes faster than that is making an absolute mockery of the sport, adding to it that this guy is in absolute top shape since March and has a Giro in his legs which he won one-legged with a 10 minutes time gap.
I have no clue if Pog is doped or what, but I think it is plain weird and sad that he accepts to be so heavily associated with ex. Saunier Duval.
The same goes for the connection to oil states in the Gulf, but I have somewhat accepted that sports people just don’t care about that unfortunately.
Indeed, why would he get linked to doping artisans when he could associate himself with people who experienced full professional scientific doping?
Yes, UCI and ASO have an interest in protecting the sport. And records set by cyclists who doped are being smashed. But if those are the only bases for claiming that Tadej and Jonas are doping, then the claims are speculative and weak. The objective evidence is that ITA’s budget has increased significantly to improve testing and data analysis. Today’s anti-doping tests are much more sophisticated and accurate than in the past. The yellow jersey is tested after each stage. Samples are sent to WADA. And no recent yellow jersey has had an adverse analytical finding.
And what about the budget of teams?
However, in the past 20 yrs, it’s not like the riders weren’t tested. They were tested then… different things happened, most of them weren’t called AAF thanks to TUEs, WADA letters (oh yeah, we surely can trust WADA), coffee time conversations, passport anomalies not being reported and so on.
However, I agree with you about any conjecture being essentially pointless. Every fan should judge (or not) riders and performances as he or she considers adequate, IMHO always taking into account that doping simply isn’t everything, at least under most circumstances.
Facts will eventually surface – and then other facts may cast further light over some misleading situation.
Protecting the sport? Gimme a break. All interest they have is money and revenue. UCI and WADA are deeply corrupt organisations. Armstrong would have never been caught was it not for whistleblowers, most notably Landis who was caught himself. This brought him down and with it almost the whole sport. The last thing UCI needs is another high profile doping case or someone from the top being caught with a motor. The industry was making huge profit in the last decade but with the current economical difficulties it faces a doping scandal would have huge repercussions. They will do everything in their power to avoid it. And if you still believe in the international organisations and their honesty and transparency after all that has happened in the last 5 years, then dream on. I find it very disturbing that in the media no eyebrows are being raised, no questions asked. In the Armstrong era there were at least a couple of people like Walsh and Kimmage who doubted him from the beginning. Now there is complete silence. Everyone is just bothered about protecting their interests. Even podcasters do not say a word because again they are sponsored by companies from the industry. You just have to listen to Armstrong’s podcast, there is more advertising than cycling content.
‘Two men looked out through prison bars……’
‘WADA are deeply corrupt organisations’
Ok that’s not gonna fly where is the evidence that this well respected organisation is deeply corrupt? (it better be a good link)
do make your own research please. Or watch the Icarus documentary
‘Icarus’ showed Russian state-sponsored Olympic doping program, so nothing to do with Wada and it’s apparent ‘corruption’. Wada helped secure Russia’s ban from international competition.
Wtf?
I think we can all take a chill pill and listen to INRNG here.
There’s a similar doping debate every year and it’s exceptionally dull.
Don’t feel the need to give answers those poking away, you can take it for granted that there are more like minds here who share the more reasoned/knowledgeable viewpoints.
It’s best for regulars who understand how silly these debates are to not take the bait and leave it be. I’ve been guilty of getting heated a few times here and regret it as it’s a lovely space for cycling nerds to chat, so there’s no need to give the poisonous few oxygen.
We all know that nobody knows on the doping debate so it’s a endless argument with zero likelihood of being resolved on a blogs comment section.
Those of us who continue to watch after the Armstrong era either don’t really care all that much about doping, or have decided to trust that the authorities are doing their up most since the changes that were made in the wake of those scandals and in effect agree to suspend our disbelief till proven otherwise by those with greater knowledge. It’s fine if others think that’s stupid, it’s only cycling so who really cares anyway?
On climbing times, it’s plainly obvious why Sunday was fast and why times are getting faster and as many point out why comparisons between generations are near impossible in the first place… so again no need to get heated or involved. Anyone getting aggravated over something so daft as comparing times nearly thirty years apart probably has issues outside of cycling fandom to continue watching something that clearly annoys them so much.
Sport evolves, times change, cycling has a peculiar history with doping and cheating (and maybe present) but let’s leave it to those with actual knowledge and governance over the issue to solve or inform us, and if you don’t think they are doing an honest job, tbh there probably won’t ever be a time you do so it’s best to stop making yourself miserable by watching this sport!
“do make your own research please”
I *love* this response to criticism to conspiracy theories. If the evidence is so telling and compelling, then surely you’re in a position to provide it to us, no?
Does the Balco scandal ring a bell? accredited WADA anti-doping laboratories doing pre-testing to warn athletes? The information is all out there for everyone to make his own research but obviously it is better to wave the “conspiracy theory” flag.
‘industry was making huge profit’
That also nonsense – procycling is not a a big money maker (you make it sound like football)
Teams actually pay to appear at the Tour (which is still owned by a elderly lady and her two children)
Don’t know where you are getting that info about teams paying to appear at the Tour.
Entry fees are banned at that level of the sport, and the organisers actually have to pay the teams both directly (a fixed payment per day) and in kind (providing accomodation, fuel cards for team vehicles, air transport for long transfers etc).
I see we’re at the “witch trial” stage of the Tour de France where even podcasters are in on a conspiracy. It’s an impossible argument to prosecute on both sides, one involves a conspiracy, and the other proving a negative. It won’t get settled in the comments section of a blog either.
It won’t, and nobody wants to see the old CN Clinic mentality here. But it’s surely legitimate to raise an eyebrow when seeing old and discredited records smashed by such huge margins. The question is, how do we navigate that sense of unease without descending into cheap cynicism?
There is too much talk of record times, it’s silly. What do climbing records have to do with bike racing? Pantani had a record, how did that happen? What were the tactics in play that day? Yesterday the tactic was to drive the pace as hard as possible on a hot day hoping that Pogacar would crack as he had in the past. When his team was used up Jonas went super hard to break him while Pogacar sat on. He never felt the wind on face until the final 5km. I have no idea how Pantani rode it but based on the way climbs were raced in the EPO days I’d guess it was a very different looking ride.
Yesterday was the very definition of licking your opponents plate clean before starting your own. Of course it was going to be fast.
Where did I wrote that podcasters are part of the conspiracy? I wrote that they make good money and profit from the advertising for companies in the industry. And nobody wants bad publicity. A doping scandal would be a disaster for the industry, so why bring this topic into public discussion?
Pogacar is a generational super freak. We know that much. He’s in the Coppi/Anquetil/Hinault bracket, if not quite Merckx (yet). He won the Giro untested and is beating two guys at the Tour who are recovering from bad crashes. There isn’t much of a wider challenge because everyone else is one of those 3s teammate! That much is easy enough to get your head round. If anything, I would have found it weirder if Vingo was beating him.
As for the speed and record times, who knows. There have been advances in everything. Individual climb records can be just down to the weather. Everyone’s smashed a Strava segment with a raging tail wind. Entire races and seasons being run at record speed, and a small group of riders winning everything (often by a long way) aren’t as easy to explain.
“Entire races and seasons being run at record speed, and a small group of riders winning everything (often by a long way) aren’t as easy to explain.”
That’s the part that gives me pause, but as many others have noted I think it’s outside our ability to really know why. I just haven’t enjoyed the way Pogi/UAE and MVDP have been so dominant, but maybe that’s just down to Visma’s year from hell. At any rate, I miss seeing riders like Purito just having a crazy day rather than another stage where the break gets two minutes and then the superstar gobbles up the wins and points.
You may have noticed (unlike you wrote elsewhere, it could be interesting watching…) that on Sunday it was VismaLAB who kept the break close and finally killed it.
I agree that the superteams are a serious issue, be it because of talent drain (UAE is totally mind blowing, far over what Sky ever bought) or because they can, on some seasons, raise the level of their athletes well over precedent-based expectations.
Apparently, they’re trying to take turns of sort in order to balance things, as in the good ol’ times; however “the problem” is that the impact of sheer talent is becoming even greater. Which isn’t always good news (ask Merckx’ rivals). I still prefer that to the impact of… sheer absence of talent. But I’m probably joking less than it seems. A less gifted rider on a superteam can be challenged by talent, but if stars align to keep talent and “team” together…
However, I’m also worried by the fact that the teams struggle more than ever to become provisional allies under given circumstances. They tend to race all the time all against each other, to the point it becomes “bad cycling” (not racing smart). These famous “poor breaks” showed some of that, but at the Classics it was paramount. My opinion is that albeit “scientific” level might be on the up, strategic skills are declining on team cars. Has anyone here (who happened to share a hotel with a team or visit) ever seen DSs of different teams having those cross-team “conversations”? It was quite common at the Giro or the Vuelta well into the 2000s, but I see that happening less and less. I’ve being less at races, too, so I really dunno.
Or they now use WhatsApp chats.
American middle-distance runner, Jim Ryun, was also a “generational super freak”, beginning as a high school boy in early-mid 1960s. Incredible talent and a super-fast response to training.
First high school boy to run under 4:00 minute mile, a feat achieved by only 2-3 others in the last 60 years.
According to the book “The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance”, Ryun, as a first time competitor during his 2nd year in high school (14-15 yrs old), advanced from mediocre 5+ minute miles in Autumn, to winning the state championship in Spring (about 4:10 mile, IIRC).
Numerous other national & world records and wins during his 20s.
Does anyone seriously think Ryun was “blood doping” or whatever, as a high school kid in the middle-america state of Kansas?!
This comment is so weird I registered just to reply.
4 minute miles are far from “a feat achieved by only 2-3 others in the last 60 years.”
There are 23 US students alone who have done this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_high_school_students_who_have_run_a_four-minute_mile
Obviously there are lot more world wide. The U18 World Record is held by a Kenyan (astonishingly..) for example.
Anyone know the name of the town early in stage 15 described as having no traffic lights? Thanks.
Bagneres de Luchon
Luchon but many small towns in France don’t either.
In terms of the level of the performance, with talk of Giro fatigue for Pogacar and crash recovery for Jonas. LR rated their performances on Plateau de Beille as the 2 best climbing performances of all time. With Jonas’s comments today that he was at his “best level ever” on the climb supporting this.
Could the level have been even higher with a perfect build-up? Maybe. But it appear that both are hitting the highest levels they’ve achieved so far.
A clarification of my post above because I couldn’t reply to Old Dave: of course, this has generally been a very good tour at times, but stages 14 and 15 felt to me like sound and fury signifying nothing as we waited for the duel between Pogi and JV at the end. To me, having the podium wrapped up with a week to go is disappointing. Of course, that’s just my opinion and I totally understand why many others would disagree.
I think that the two leading teams’ strategies leading to those two finales were quite significant. Besides, the break played their cards hard enough as if they hoped not to be reeled in, which was a decently interesting show in itself (well, not something I’m totally fond of, but people usually say that it’s what usually made the TDF so good…).
What were you expecting in order to get a better feeling? Pogi or Vinge attacking from far out? We had that when it could make sense, now it would have been simply a meaningless mistake. Besides, they’d win anyway and people would be complaining even more about those two being on a different level. Pogi got roasted when he attacked from far in stages when it made sense, what if he decided to do it no matter the route?
Had it all been much better if they arrived together? Together with Remco, too, maybe? So the podium isn’t wrapped out? That would mean even less had happened.
The strongest rider won, with two different strategies, his rival tried hard and went all in to see if there was a hope to crack the yellow jersey, heck I think that’s good enough.
It’s sport not a scripted TV series (although it looks like it sometimes), the better rider winning is what we’re watching.
Those long long kms with Vingo pulling and Pogi sucking wheel at half a cm had suspense enough for me, especially ’cause Pogi didn’t always look as very very very brilliant & at ease as we tend to think with hindisght.
Besides, I really can’t understand the “podium wrapped up” thing. Now we know that Vingo isn’t athletically strong enough on any terrain, he knows too, so he’s got full motivation to go and try something creative, which makes the podium still very uncertain, in a way. He’s a double TDF winner, not a Ciccone or Zubeldia holding top a top 10 for dear life (two riders I like, full respect to them).
Perhaps more mutual attacks? I’d agree with that. But Pogi already did it (and actually “attacked” twice on Saturday), and frankly… it both isn’t Vingo style *and* it wouldn’t be a good strategy against this rival. He’d have needed one more Roglic to create a sequence in which Pogi needs to sprint twice the times, but, alas, he hadn’t this year. Yes, that Granon was a better stage. But I’m not sure that as a whole it was a better TDF (as very good as it was). Still we need to wait for this to finish, lots of factors could indeed spoil it.
Thanks for talking me back off the ledge. I was pretty disappointed that everything went so poorly for Roglic, who I had hoped could be a factor in keeping the GC race interesting. With him gone and Kuss never there the options have become pretty limited (Remco was never going to force the action on the big mountain stages). But there may be some action to come, although I’m not too optimistic about any more big changes (barring some unfortunate circumstance that none of us want to see).
I can’t remember if Jumbo-Visma managed so poorly last Vuelta because they already knew that Rogla was going away in any case (in that case, it wouldn’t be “poor” management, of course) or on the contrary he decided to go as he didn’t like what happened then, which would mean that the Vuelta was pure hybris suicide for the team.
For sure, 2023 and Pogi’s issues at the TDF made them lose some perspective on how decisive was Roglic for the 2022 victory, which Vingo wouldn’t probably achieve without Rogla.
However, they still have options this time around, too, only they need to race away from the mere athletical power performance. As they did in 2022, after all. Of course, the respective strengths of teams as shifted a lot, which makes it harder, but you don’t always need a team to turn around a GC with creative racing. Vingegaard is behind Pogacar in terms of physical strength, but not as far behind as to deny any contest, quite the contrary I’d say.
Contador at the 2012 Vuelta comes to mind.
To me, having the four of them (Pogi, Vingo, Rogla, Remco) racing together, albeit clearly distributed on two different steps, was absolutely a dream, because it shaped a whole different scenario. Besides, R & & had some options to grow into better form come the third week, which is far from granted but a further point of interest all the same.
A couple of points I’d like to make about that “record” stuff, despite of course belonging myself to the “cynical” bandwagon which doesn’t believe in a much clean(er) cycling… whatever that means.
Anyway, I also believe that doping – as such – doesn’t often explain everything, if much at all, so don’t do limited watts analysis.
I’m also quite sure that spending time *publicly* (inrng included) conjecturing and complaining before any fact at all has yet surfaced is of little use, although sometimes I indulge myself in such a miserable activity ^___^ when my instincts catch me off guard (by any means, of course we should all enjoy absurd doping talks “privately”, when riding or having a pint in person among friends: the judgement of fans is what really makes justice in the doping/antidoping field! ^___^).
All that said, that Pantani record isn’t considered one of his greatest or best. He was alone for 13 kms and you noticed that it cost him slightly more than expected to leave behind the very modest athlete which was on the front after the early break. The stage was a hard one, although not as Sunday’s, but on the overall the couple of mountain days was comparable, the hardest one then being the day before, when Pantani also attacked in the finale (as Pogi did, anyway).
Even more important, Pantani – unlike Pogi – had a very hard time winning the Giro, and the whole strategy was different, recovering all he could and expecting to grow form through the French race (something you couldn’t even try in Proudhomme-style TDFs). He clearly looked well below the full shape he’d later achieve (and which wouldn’t have been enough anyway hadn’t he cracked Jan big time with a long range crazy move)
The record, without being a mediocre time at all, of course, as he was done by one of the greatest climber ever if not the greatest, IMHO wasn’t broken mainly because of different sets of circumstances in most previous races after 1998.
Citing Pinot 2015 is frankly laughable because a group then arrived together with no forcing at all, with the likes of Tejay and Pierrerollllllaaaand. If anything, that 45’30” proves precisely that 43′ could be broken anytime by whomever, wasn’t it for the tactical factors which (nearly) always come into play on such a long climb.
Of course, breaking the 40′ is a whole different matter…
OTOH, you may notice that on Sunday despite the Visma efforts, the previous climbs weren’t tackled at huge speed. The team tended to use the flat sections to go much harder and keep the break under control as they’re now stronger on that terrain rather than uphill. Makes sense, but at the same time, that was better for Pogi, too.
Drafting at well over 20 km/h made a big favourable difference both for Pogi and (surprise surprise) for the rider in front, when compared to a lone athlete.
It was an unprecedented team relay uphill full speed by three strong riders, of growing physical potential. Hard to imagine better conditions, unless you change external conditions like the stage route, the wind and so on.
Add to the above that Pogacar is no doubt an absolute generational champion (he won races which aren’t won just doping more than the rest, and also won races where he was physically on lower form, something you don’t easily see among most “flying donkeys” who got pharma wings), and Vingo, too, is gaining more and more status (for me at least) as he’s showing to be able to produce huge performances even when his team doesn’t look at its top.
A lot of good points from Gabriele. I would say that the whole concept of climbing records in cycling is fundamentally flawed. In road cycling we simply don’t have stadiums in which more or less similar conditions can be created, as is the case in athletics, for example. The talk about records on mountains is just fuel for the big social media machine, which is to a large extend not about information, but about attention through polarization.
As the points already made, those people exclaiming doping!! are missing the key thing, namely Pantani may not have gone up ‘very’ fast he may not have been sheltered from the start to the start of the climb, he may not have set a high pace from the start. It’s not like comparing 100m swimmers or sprinters.
I have one additional comment on the doping stuff.
We can all agree that the 90s/early 00s were the peak era of doping, with EPO providing huge boosts. We can also agree that currently, the testing is a lot more rigorous. So far, good?
So even if doping is happening now, logically it is going to be micro-dosing and other small stuff that will provide small gains. If these massive gains were fuelled by doping, it would have to be something pretty damn massive to outweigh the EPO era – and THAT is quite implausible, atleast to me.
More than bikes, i think modern science has pushed the threshold of what riders are capable of doing. That is a big one, especially when you extend it to an overall team and add in the supporting riders that can be bought by budget of teams like Sky/Ineos, Visma and UAE.
YMMV.
Don’t agree with your premise…
It was soon apparent that just filling yourself with EPO and getting a 60% hct wasn’t the most effective way to go. Blood must be more fluid to be easier to pump etc. In the 2000s they were doing things better, even a little later on. Of course “boosting more” a lesser athlete might bring all the same to slower climbing times although doping is better. Or the climbing times are a little slower but you’re way faster in TTs because you achieve similar or even inferior w/kg but with more watts. Etc.
And you’re underestimating big time the multiple effects of corticosteroids, GH and other hormones besides EPO.
I agree with gabriele – it has been proven that purely blasting EPO but capping yourself at a 60% HCT isn’t the best preparation.
I’m really not saying today’s peloton is clean or not, but current science (training, aero, nutrition and preparation) has led to many riders out performing the fully fueled EPO demons of the late 90’s.
Today’s athletes are a LOT more fluid and able to reduce the work required to get them up the climbs.
Anyways, amazing Tour so far, thank you Inrng!
Of course in the ’90s and early 2000’s riders were not only blasting their Hct to 60% with EPO and leaving it there – there were using corticosteroids, GH, T, and other things are a prodigious rate. Are you suggesting there are new, unknown PIDs that certain teams have and are keeping secret from the rest of the peloton and from the wider public and medical community? Also, with the testing that was going on in the ’90s and early 2000’s riders were able to use this full range of PIDs during long, high intensity training blocks with relative impunity, which is more effective than using these drugs during a race. The latter is the key reason that just using EPO for a few weeks before a race (ala the schmo from Icarus) don’t make a huge difference.
Also, how can one have lower w/kg but more watts? Gain a bunch of kilos?
Have a look at the average weight of top TDF athletes during, say, the Armstrong era. If you have to tackle 120 km of flat or flattish TTs, it can be convenient to keep en eye on sheer power rather than on power to weight, which is why some athletes, despite extra pharma, weren’t breaking uphill records all the time.
Of course those were the times when this sort of things still made some sense of sort, we’re now clearly beyond consistency from that POV, although of course this is one field where aero improvements can account for much (not everything, but let’s not be picky).
By the way, the 90s have little to do with the early 2000s.
Besides, we should differentiate between doping techniques and antidoping management.
Anyway, doping techniques are not just labels, and it doesn’t work as in “take as much as you can”, as you OTOH seem to be aware in the case of EPO, but not as much when speaking of the 90s in general terms. Autotransfusions were used in the 80s, but they really became much better in the 2000s. Same with EPO. You can improve a lot with adequate scientific investment.
Even nowadays you might be aware that big improvements are being made to *optimise* ahem, let’s call it “altitude”, thanks to carbon monoxide inhalers. Visma and UAE admit it straight away, it’s no secret. There are of course other interesting implications…
Finally, during the last couple of pharma-related dominations, impunity had nothing – nothing at all – to do with testing. Athletes are tested by institutions in order to have some sort of leverage you can try to use in order to “send a message” to a given team, or to raise some more funding, but it’s not about returning necessarily any AAF.
I think we all need a rest day!
I think that the rider that Pogacar resembles most is Greg Lemond. A prodigy with extreme physical abilities. Lemond’s VO2 max was 93 and I don’t think that anyone outside of the UAE coaching staff knows what Pogacar’s is. But what Pogacar is doing seems plausible given his entire career trajectory.
Maybe it sounds a bit crazy, but I always thought they resembled each other a bit even before Pogi became such a great rider… their faces, I mean 😀
Hope Pogi isn’t keen on hunting.
Even his casual attitude and general merriment kind of resemble LeMond?